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-   -   Prototype ESC's - ROAR, Legal, Fair, Sportsmanship, Opinions? (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/327305-prototype-escs-roar-legal-fair-sportsmanship-opinions.html)

kn7671 09-13-2009 04:07 PM

Prototype ESC's - ROAR, Legal, Fair, Sportsmanship, Opinions?
 
Prototype ESC's - ROAR, Legal, Fair, Sportsmanship, Opinions?

ROAR has not yet addressed what an ESC should or should not be capable of doing, but should they outline specifically how ESC's should be allowed to work, or do we simply ask ROAR to approve ESC's just like they do batteries, motors, and bodies?

or8ital 09-13-2009 04:16 PM

Are you referring to the ESC, the software/firmware or both?

CarlosG. 09-13-2009 04:23 PM

Just wondering what brought this on?

wingracer 09-13-2009 04:25 PM

The more restrictive the rules, the easier it is to cheat.

adamge 09-13-2009 04:30 PM

This might be in response to alleged prototype ESCs being ran in Vegas last week.

Personally, I think the governing bodies should have specified that timing be fixed. But, pretty much no one realized how many hundreds of dollars that would have saved every electric racer. Now we are stuck in this world.

wingracer 09-13-2009 04:37 PM


Originally Posted by adamge (Post 6338891)
Personally, I think the governing bodies should have specified that timing be fixed. But, pretty much no one realized how many hundreds of dollars that would have saved every electric racer. Now we are stuck in this world.

Maybe so but how do you enforce it? Even if you come up with some way of checking the profile from every manufacturer I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to have a hidden profile that can be activated after tech. As nice as some rules would be, if it can't be effectively enforced, it can't be made a rule.

Danny-b23 09-13-2009 04:43 PM

So you eliminate the computer adjustable speed controls from the equation. The SPX has done well until the v200 firmware from Tekin came out.

wingracer 09-13-2009 04:52 PM


Originally Posted by Danny-b23 (Post 6338931)
So you eliminate the computer adjustable speed controls from the equation. The SPX has done well until the v200 firmware from Tekin came out.

Oh that's a great idea. The only speed control that you can upgrade for free instead of buying a new one to stay competitive and you want to ban it. Seems to me the better option would be for all the other manufacturers to follow tekin's example.

Look, I know things are kind of crazy right now but sooner or later we will hit the physical limits of what is possible and once every manufacturer gets there, things will stabilize.

rushrush1 09-13-2009 04:57 PM

Just my opinion, I don't think you should tie the hands of the manufacturers. Some pretty amazing stuff coming out the tekin camp. On the other hand I have an RS in my vintage GTA and I don't feel comfortable using all the adjustments, but where do you draw the line.

Good subject

CarlosG. 09-13-2009 05:09 PM

Well, I run a gtb and it is limited for me. I would buy LRP, but have had a bad experience with them and will not go back. Most of the guys run LRP so they have the ability to run advance timing electronically were as I can't so, it would be nice to see some limits, but it is a catch 22 situation. I just try to drive better to make up for what I don't have..

UltegraSTI 09-13-2009 05:10 PM

just somethin else to complain about. u eliminated the 'need' to keep buyin batteries that had more punch or runtime and thus a big $$$. need i forget saying 'showing up with 1 battery vs 6'. we've also removed the need to be a mad scientist with brushes, springs, comm lathes, hood tools etc etc in brushed motor tech. both huge expenses that have been reduced or removed from hobby.

honestly, i dont mind stirrin the shite as many of u know, but...

this is an issue over technology that is avail to all of us (yes the pros get to try trick stuff 1st, but it trickles down. nothin new there).

every1 has some form of adjustable timing. and if u go to far, u pay the price. same as before with every1 running fixed timing (exc mod).

want to complain bout something on speedo tech? is that all this tech has a cool factor. but how is it gonna help keep people in the hobby, and more importantly get new folks in the hobby?

rc has bigger issues to sort out than speedo technology. it was bound to happen anyway. save for resistance levels, death of 60hz, RVP, and torque control, speedos from 2006 yield little difference to those from 1986.

the last thing we has hobbyists need to do is bicker bout these things. it doesnt help the hobby in large. who cares who has the biggest 'shite' in the speedo dept if folks leave and the track puts up the closed sign. we lost another 1 this wkend in our area. sadly the 1 5min from my 1st house thats in construction.

rethink it all folks, when it gets down to it, the nitro guys once again have somethin to snicker about.

1 day electric will get back to stock and mod. mod u can play w/all that stuff. stock ur limited in some way shape or form. less classes, more racers. yeh some guys will always be up front, and others not so much. not every1 can win.

did ya have fun? ask yourself that. make it a point if u forget. going home 9th and having a good time is better than a win feelin mad bout somethin that mighve happened or just flat out tired workin so hard for somethin thats supposed to be a hobby.

off the box

R

Fred_B 09-13-2009 05:11 PM

If we restrict the speed controls (timing, programming etc.) it's just going to make things worse. Every time some one wins a race it will be that "factory racer only" software or something like that.

Restricting the speedo timing is a non issue IMO because there is a physical limit to where we can go. Eventually, the motor physically won't run properly.

ROAR approved speedo's? Sounds good on the surface but most of the big races are not ROAR events. It's a big free for all with all of the different rules at the different races.

Surprised it took this long for the thread to start after Vegas actually.

rezenclowd3 09-13-2009 05:24 PM

I personally think it is enough to limit voltage/cells, dimensions of kit, body, wheels, and motor turn. Let the ESC manufacturers innovate. Teching the ESC will put unnecessary burdens on everyone. I still spend the least amount of money running EP TC than anything else I have run.

RLMW VQ 09-13-2009 05:24 PM

im with wingracer on this tekin has a speedo that you can upgrade to stay competive. this type of speedo can only help the hobby with keeping the cost down and the performace up. more companies need to follow the example that tekin has set.

or8ital 09-13-2009 05:29 PM

I wonder how much of this is related to brushless being a newer technology. I'm sure once it matures everything will even out and the performance will be nearly maxed out. The only problem is that everything is getting so fast again. 17.5 is feeling nearly as fast as 13.5 did just a year or so ago. For those wanting to slow things down it seems that has not occurred.

imprsme 09-13-2009 05:32 PM


Originally Posted by or8ital (Post 6339116)
For those wanting to slow things down it seems that has not occurred.

Anytime you put the word "racing" in the equation...someone will figure out how to go faster!

or8ital 09-13-2009 05:42 PM


Originally Posted by imprsme (Post 6339126)
Anytime you put the word "racing" in the equation...someone will figure out how to go faster!

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

wingracer 09-13-2009 05:43 PM

Well it's easy to go slower. If 17.5 gets too fast, go to a 21.5.

Danny-b23 09-13-2009 05:44 PM

Saying that the motors won't handle the power the speed controls are putting out is redundant. Technology helps and kills this hobby. Motors will only be able to handle more and more load from here on out.

imprsme 09-13-2009 05:47 PM


Originally Posted by or8ital (Post 6339179)
Yeah, I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

I knew that.

microcrazy24 09-13-2009 05:48 PM

Definately a question from the vegas race. Simple answer is. If Scotty knew about it which he most likely did not than he should have ruled that they are legal. Why because for over 25 years teams have been running prototype speed controls with just shrink wrap on them, testing and tuning at big races. If he did not want anything like that at his race, he would have stated that previous to the race. Same thing at other big races. Great race hate to see stuff like this start up.

Danny-b23 09-13-2009 05:48 PM

Also, I would like to add that every manufacturer doing what Tekin did will only make it worse with the "team-only-profiles".

imprsme 09-13-2009 05:49 PM


Originally Posted by wingracer (Post 6339185)
Well it's easy to go slower. If 17.5 gets too fast, go to a 21.5.

Yep until someone figures out how to make those just as fast and 17.5 is now??? Then we'll have a thread about how things are too fast.

Funny they say history repeats itself, the guy who said that must have raced RC cars. LOL

microcrazy24 09-13-2009 05:50 PM

did ya have fun? ask yourself that. make it a point if u forget. going home 9th and having a good time is better than a win feelin mad bout somethin that mighve happened or just flat out tired workin so hard for somethin thats supposed to be a hobby.

off the box

R[/QUOTE]

Don't know of anyone that goes home mad that just won! :lol:

wingracer 09-13-2009 05:54 PM


Originally Posted by Danny-b23 (Post 6339220)
Also, I would like to add that every manufacturer doing what Tekin did will only make it worse with the "team-only-profiles".

I just don't buy that. Yeah the team guys will have it first since they can't have the general public blowing up motors with experimental profiles but once it's figured out, it goes public. Why? Because you want to sell more speedos. The best way to sell a speedo is to be faster than the competition. If you are holding on to a secret team profile while the public one isn't as good, the privateers will buy something else.

The manufacturer doesn't care if it's one of his team guys or a privateer that wins, as long as it's his speedo in the car.

JoelV 09-13-2009 05:59 PM

Please lock this. And don't bring it up again.

wingracer 09-13-2009 06:11 PM


Originally Posted by JoelV (Post 6339317)
Please lock this. And don't bring it up again.

Now that is a good idea. :D

Danny-b23 09-13-2009 06:14 PM


Originally Posted by JoelV (Post 6339317)
Please lock this. And don't bring it up again.

Its a discussion, and no body has made insults. No reason to.

wingracer 09-13-2009 06:18 PM


Originally Posted by Danny-b23 (Post 6339429)
Its a discussion, and no body has made insults. No reason to.

Not yet, but I fear it's headed there.

Kenny L 09-13-2009 06:21 PM


Originally Posted by JoelV (Post 6339317)
Please lock this. And don't bring it up again.

I second that. This thread should be deleted

InspGadgt 09-13-2009 07:20 PM


Originally Posted by wingracer (Post 6338912)
Maybe so but how do you enforce it? Even if you come up with some way of checking the profile from every manufacturer I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to have a hidden profile that can be activated after tech. As nice as some rules would be, if it can't be effectively enforced, it can't be made a rule.

This is exactly the issue I brought up back when BL was being looked at to be legal. I brought up the parallel to what happened in paintball with hidden profiles and essentially cheater software and it was shot down back then...But lack of foresight, even though it was pointed out, has put us in this situation and we will have to live with it...the gene is out of the bottle already so to speak.

Cammer 09-13-2009 07:21 PM

Whats changed?

It used to be the team drivers would get the best cells and stronger motors, the ones that stood out as the matchers and builders were matching and dynoing. I am sure that there are now the odd lipo cell that stands out and the odd brushless motor that runs a little stronger. The team drivers will get these. They will also get the top notch software that isn't acceptable for every application so it will never be released to the public. If you want these things become a team driver, if they won't let you on their team join another. If your not good enough to make the team you don't need the good stuff, you need the club racing gear. :cry:

My opinion only

InspGadgt 09-13-2009 07:26 PM

What's changed is now instead of everyone changing to the $40 or $80 motor of the week they are changing to the $200 ESC of the week.

Danny-b23 09-13-2009 07:28 PM


Originally Posted by Cammer (Post 6339925)
Whats changed?

It used to be the team drivers would get the best cells and stronger motors, the ones that stood out as the matchers and builders were matching and dynoing. I am sure that there are now the odd lipo cell that stands out and the odd brushless motor that runs a little stronger. The team drivers will get these. They will also get the top notch software that isn't acceptable for every application so it will never be released to the public. If you want these things become a team driver, if they won't let you on their team join another. If your not good enough to make the team you don't need the good stuff, you need the club racing gear. :cry:

My opinion only

Why not make racing better and give the privateers a fighting chance? Have an Approved Speed Control list for every big race.
If you want to allow all of the profile, throttle curve, turbo boost mumbo jumbo, then add those speed controls to your list.
If you don't, then don't.
It's that simple and could help the hobby.

Cammer 09-13-2009 07:31 PM


Originally Posted by Danny-b23 (Post 6339976)
Why not make racing better and give the privateers a fighting chance? Have an Approved Speed Control list for every big race.
If you want to allow all of the profile, throttle curve, turbo boost mumbo jumbo, then add those speed controls to your list.
If you don't, then don't.
It's that simple and could help the hobby.

So then I would need one speed control to race a ROAR race and a different (read second) to race the IIC and then a third to race the Riders suck 300 in toon town. (Yeah that was a Saskatchewan cheap shot, couldn't help myself)

slotracer577 09-13-2009 07:37 PM

I would say that this will stop or slow down having to buy new speed controls. With the ability to update the software as the mfg finds improvements saves the cost of buying a new one. This is nothing new, Castle creations has had updatable firmware for several years, they just have not made sensor speed controls.

I personally bought tekins for the ability to update off the computer. Would not even consider another speed control without the ability to be updated. Would not want to be stuck with a $150 controller that is now outdated because there is a new revision of software. Would hate to be a retailer who gets stuck with old revision controllers that no one will buy. Would much prefer to have one that can always be current.

What makes a good brushless controller is the software. It isnt like the old brushed controllers which were pretty much just a switch with variable duty cycle.

John

or8ital 09-13-2009 07:39 PM

Is there really an issue with this? Seems to me the Tekin, LRP, KO and others are all keeping up with each other. Maybe the Novak struggles but it is also 3 years old. I guess I don't see the problem and I'm not really seeing speedos of the week.

Jeff Cuffs 09-13-2009 07:40 PM

Fill me in what was going down with speedos in vegas.

IIGQ4U 09-13-2009 07:44 PM

Yeah because if it's simply Tekin's software version 200, that is a software update available to any Tekin owner.

Todd Putnam 09-13-2009 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by Jeff Cuffs (Post 6340056)
Fill me in what was going down with speedos in vegas.

Did someone come out with a speedo that with the ability to set up AND drive the car?!? lmao :eek:


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