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Old 09-16-2009, 09:14 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Take the extra battery out of the CRC and it will not be as fast ...


It needs the extra power from a additional battery to provide that performance you claim is so innovative and legit...
Just use a booster and it should still go as fast.
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:19 AM   #392
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17.5 ? 13.5 ?

This results of this last race only proves again a motors size does not provide fair & equal racing for entree level racers......



Someday .... Racing stock will have to be based on experience so the sport can begin to grow again....
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:33 AM   #393
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Default Just cant help it.

I really tried not to to chime in on this topic, but here it goes.

I see some very vaild points in alot of your posts. Im looking at one thing that most people seem to be on board with: Brian shouldn't be in 17.5. I dont totally disagree. But I dont fully agree either. Here is my opinion. I want to beat the best. If I win because I avoided the competition, I didn't win. That may not be the way everyone feels, but to me, that how I see it. Only Brian can say if he should run 17.5, or any other class. It his entry fee money. If the race track chooses to take his money don't beat Brian up over it. It has nothing to do with his sponsorship with any company. Here is why: Just about anyone on this forum, or any other one on RC Tech, go over to Brian trade cars with him. Radio, speedo, batts, motors, chargers, even tools. Then you two line up on the same track and race on the clock. To 90% of the people on this thread(including me): You lose, he wins! With your car and equipment he beats you. Brain winning 17.5 had nothing to do with his equipment. It has alot to do with his commitment to his craft. I wouldn't worry about the speedo, car, or radio of the month....... Go Practice, It's cheap, fun, rewarding, and your supporting your local hobby store. Plus your brain wont melt from reading 45 mins on conspircy theory. Good luck all.
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:35 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Mason View Post
As for battery supply issues: There are already rules in regards to BEC's (5.2.2) and how supplied power can interact with ESCs. .
5.2.2 Vehicle batteries must be securely mounted. ROAR recommends limiting the radio
receiver battery pack in all vehicles to 6 volts. This is usually accomplished by the use
of five (5) NiCd/NiMh cells or four alkaline cells. Slightly higher voltages (Maximum 6
NiCd/NiMh cells or 2 Lithium technology cells) may be used for direct receiver power
but this can result in an increased risk of receiver failure by over voltage. Receiver and
servo power for electric vehicles may come from an electronic speed controller
equipped with Battery Elimination Circuitry (BEC) or from a separate battery pack used
for this purpose only. (See rule 1.5.19).

per the rules a 2 cell lithium can only be direct connected to the rx and not the speedo. which make this speedo configuration illegal, if it were a ROAR race

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Originally Posted by Mason View Post
Also in regards to some comments about "recharging", 8.3.1.7 specifically addresses this (meaning its not allowed in standard races).
how would this be tech'd in a ROAR sanctioned race? i see no way of proving or disproving this happens. for instance everyone runs a cap that is wired to the + and 1 leads from the main battt be ery. this in essence is a battery and it is being charged and discharged several time during the race. would that be illegal.
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:44 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by theisgroup View Post
5.2.2 Vehicle batteries must be securely mounted. ROAR recommends limiting the radio
receiver battery pack in all vehicles to 6 volts. This is usually accomplished by the use
of five (5) NiCd/NiMh cells or four alkaline cells. Slightly higher voltages (Maximum 6
NiCd/NiMh cells or 2 Lithium technology cells) may be used for direct receiver power
but this can result in an increased risk of receiver failure by over voltage. Receiver and
servo power for electric vehicles may come from an electronic speed controller
equipped with Battery Elimination Circuitry (BEC) or from a separate battery pack used
for this purpose only. (See rule 1.5.19).

per the rules a 2 cell lithium can only be direct connected to the rx and not the speedo. which make this speedo configuration illegal, if it were a ROAR race
Hmmm I read that a little different than you do...

It states the power can come from the ESC or from a separate pack. It doesn't state that the battery can't use the ESC's internal regulator to supply power to the receiver. And technically they are using a pack to power the receiver, which is legal.

I'll let the good people at ROAR clear up the language in their rule book, if they need to, for ESC's like this.
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:55 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie View Post
Hmmm I read that a little different than you do...

It states the power can come from the ESC or from a separate pack. It doesn't state that the battery can't use the ESC's internal regulator to supply power to the receiver. And technically they are using a pack to power the receiver, which is legal.

I'll let the good people at ROAR clear up the language in their rule book, if they need to, for ESC's like this.
i agree with what you said for 6v power packs. except there is a single sentence that specifically references lithium and where you can use the higher powered pack. it does state that the rx can recieve power directly from the sec. but no where in this rules does it states that the higher power lithium can be plugged into the esc

Slightly higher voltages (Maximum 6
NiCd/NiMh cells or 2 Lithium technology cells) may be used for direct receiver power
but this can result in an increased risk of receiver failure by over voltage.
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:59 AM   #397
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I love the way ROAR has to fix all this, but 90% of you guys don't want to join ROAR.

Also, there's no such thing as stock. The class is called 17.5

Homologation? Anyone remember the fights over the body rules???
Jiml - So if we join ROAR, are you going to fix the problem?

And if ROAR doesn't decide to address these types of issues, where is the legitimacy in ROAR at all? Where else are we as an RC Community going to turn to? If you leave it to the racers, well we see what happens. I guess I will have to start a movement and push for an active RC Racing Governing Body.

Whether you admit it or not, 17.5 equals the Stock Class for 99.999% of us, and 13.5 equals Super Stock.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:00 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by theisgroup View Post

Slightly higher voltages (Maximum 6
NiCd/NiMh cells or 2 Lithium technology cells) may be used for direct receiver power
but this can result in an increased risk of receiver failure by over voltage.
Problem is the wording.

It says "may" be used. It doesn't say "may ONLY" be used.

And then you need to define "DIRECT" receiver power.

Going by exactly what it says, they're not doing anything wrong.

If there's a loophole to be closed, then so be it. Until then, they're legal.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:05 AM   #399
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Also, there's no such thing as stock. The class is called 17.5
Someone forgot to tell these guys:

http://roarracing.com/downloads/entr...nroad_Nats.pdf

Unless you were referring to the IIC in which the word stock appears 7 times on the Classes page of their website.

Just sayin...
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:05 AM   #400
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If there's a loophole to be closed, then so be it. Until then, they're legal.
i completely agree. I believe that based on current rules all of these speculations are legal. I think the concept of this thread was not to debate legality at the iic. but to bring out the short comings of some of the rules that currently exists. i see rules about motors and bodies and batteries. but the speedo is a black box.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:06 AM   #401
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And if ROAR doesn't decide to address these types of issues, where is the legitimacy in ROAR at all? .
ROAR doesn't need to make a decision until the Paved Nationals in early October. I'm sure they will, as 1/12 and WGT classes are offered there.

Why should ROAR care if a non-sanctioned event has an issue with their rules?
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:06 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by theisgroup View Post
i agree with what you said for 6v power packs. except there is a single sentence that specifically references lithium and where you can use the higher powered pack. it does state that the rx can recieve power directly from the sec. but no where in this rules does it states that the higher power lithium can be plugged into the esc

Slightly higher voltages (Maximum 6
NiCd/NiMh cells or 2 Lithium technology cells) may be used for direct receiver power
but this can result in an increased risk of receiver failure by over voltage.
Correct...but...

I was going to use a 7.4v pack for my WGT but I was afraid of frying my receiver and servo. I thought about getting voltage regulator to knock down the voltage to 6v. There's no language stating that practice would be illegal...actually they almost encourage doing something like this to prevent equipment failure. If what I read is true, that's what Advanced has done internally on their ESC. All the ESC's is doing is taking the 7.4v from the receiver pack and knocking the voltage down to 6v to power the receiver.

Like I said ROAR will have to clearly define that. I'm sure there will need to be something specified about how the pack can be wired into the receiver.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:16 AM   #403
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I'm curious. Has this speed control been used at any IFMAR events yet? IFMAR is working on lipo rules and I'm curious to see if they have anything to say about this since ROAR tends to follow IFMAR rules for worlds classes.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:29 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie View Post
Correct...but...

I was going to use a 7.4v pack for my WGT but I was afraid of frying my receiver and servo. I thought about getting voltage regulator to knock down the voltage to 6v. There's no language stating that practice would be illegal...actually they almost encourage doing something like this to prevent equipment failure. If what I read is true, that's what Advanced has done internally on their ESC. All the ESC's is doing is taking the 7.4v from the receiver pack and knocking the voltage down to 6v to power the receiver.

Like I said ROAR will have to clearly define that. I'm sure there will need to be something specified about how the pack can be wired into the receiver.

i will be honest, i don't so much care how the "advance" product works. but it is the product that brought to light how little rules there are governing what a "speed" controller can do.

crc came with a speedo. Scotty and crew allowed it. Brian would have won stock with or without the advanced speedo. I mean there was no one else in the A main that has ever made an A main at big event. that is end of the story about the iic.

i would like to see this thread move on and see rules put around the speedo control and it's function. there are soo many ways to cheat in the speedo and there is nothing to say that you cheated. i know that the speedo is the most complex part of the car now, but there still need to be rules governing it's function and how it performs that function
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:37 AM   #405
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I'm curious. Has this speed control been used at any IFMAR events yet? IFMAR is working on lipo rules and I'm curious to see if they have anything to say about this since ROAR tends to follow IFMAR rules for worlds classes.
IFMAR = modified. If you want to go faster, you use a faster motor.

I see nothing wrong with what CRC did with this ESC and I personally would have been disappointedif they had taken it out for the main. They had a fair advantage based on class rules and that is what racing is all about.
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