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Old 09-14-2009, 07:56 PM   #301
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the spedo would not work. much the same way that your tekin will not work without the switch on.
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There 100% is a way to run it normally, and for the record the Tekin works just fine without a switch. I have 2 cars running off the LIPO RX pack into the RX It didn't need to be on when the power from it is coming from the other side. EVERY Brushless system is still "ON" without the switch saying "ON" ...it won't work but power is available.
Derek is right. Many newer ESCs will sense voltage coming from the receiver and turn itself on. This is why when running a booster or RX pack and not pulling a power wire out of the ESC harness you turn on the booster/RX pack and do not turn on the ESC. In fact I ran my 1/12th with the Novak booster and cut the switch completely off the ESC just to make sure no one turned it on by accident.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:04 PM   #302
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Derek is right. Many newer ESCs will sense voltage coming from the receiver and turn itself on. This is why when running a booster or RX pack and not pulling a power wire out of the ESC harness you turn on the booster/RX pack and do not turn on the ESC. In fact I ran my 1/12th with the Novak booster and cut the switch completely off the ESC just to make sure no one turned it on by accident.
Agreed but the CRC guys insist that theirs will not. It sounds like it was specifically designed for rx pack use with its built in regulator.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:35 PM   #303
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If it won't run off the receiver pack without a main battery connected it's not feeding power to the motor.

Also, the receiver packs are like 200 to 400 mAh so even if they were supplying receiver pack voltage to the motor it would only last for part of the run. If they're running fast for the entire run (and they were at Vegas) it's not the receiver pack.

Things are always going to be changing in the world of speedo's. Like it or not the fast guys are going to get them first so you can either get fast or wait for the new stuff.

I'd prefer that ROAR have an approved speedo list for stock but it's not a big deal for all of these big races. ROAR rules may or may not apply at non-ROAR events.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:47 PM   #304
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Is there a merit badge for reading the entire thread in one sitting?
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:50 PM   #305
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Is there a merit badge for reading the entire thread in one sitting?
TELL me about it.....As my 12 year old twins would say in a text message......


OMG!
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:04 PM   #306
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I can't wait for Charlie to do it anymore and someone's gotta do it...


Who loves the internet???


Ah, I feel much better now

Simple solution- "Stock" classes run commercially available gear, nuff said. If someone like Tekin, Losi, Speedpassion, etc want to offer their customers new profiles for their existing products then I say that's fair game.

The thing that has gotten lost is that Modified isn't Modified. It's officially called "Open Modified". That's where prototypes should be run. However I have no doubt that Frank and the CRC boys presented their gear to the IIC tech guys, Jamie, Scotty and the crew made a decision and they stuck to it. Congrats to Brian and the CRC crew for (gasp) winning within the rules as they were at the event.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:49 PM   #307
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thats the really funny part, the new CRC car, that isn't available to joe blow yet, the top car, the slapmaster, the, the, the, all the the's that were prototype and not available, no ones complaining about that, only a esc.
As it relates to CRC's new car and the IIC, the XL conversion and, to my knowledge, every part that the team was running on the car, were available in the trackside hobby shop before, during, and after the race.

As for the other controversy, I'm firmly in the camp where if you gain an advantage by pushing the rules, you're doing something right. Look at every single professional motorsport and they follow the same pattern: one driver, team, chassis, or whatever comes up with something that dominates, and soon after either everybody adopts it or it is outlawed. If we were to outlaw innovation before the fact, we'd be discouraging so much of what makes competition great.

Granted, the difference between us and full scale racing is that we have amateurs, semi-pros, and pros all competing side-by-side and sometimes on the same track. I think the solution is as others have stated, in a true amateur class at a large event, you prevent sponsored drivers from running, and you restrict equipment to what is available via a specific store or distributor before the race. I think the IIC crew does as good a job of this as anybody and I'm sure they and others will continue to move true amateur classes in the right direction.

Beyond that, if a privateer chooses to run in a 13.5 or modified class against sponsored drivers, not having access to the same equipment is just the name of the game. You get good, you get sponsored, you get better stuff. It's true at every other level of sport, why argue about it in RC?
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:07 PM   #308
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Is there a merit badge for reading the entire thread in one sitting?
for sure

I was'nt at the IIC and what ever was going on will eventually come out. But the most important thing for ROAR or any event is to restrict the pros from running in any stock class. Leave stock for us mortals, mabey then it would make sense for everyday racers to go to big events like this.
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:44 PM   #309
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As it relates to CRC's new car and the IIC, the XL conversion and, to my knowledge, every part that the team was running on the car, were available in the trackside hobby shop before, during, and after the race.
yes you are correct, but thats not what i was saying. I meant the kit is not released yet, and like i also said, it doesn't matter and good for them for having a awesome car and team drivers, I'm torn between supporting the local guy (slapmaster) and getting a XL
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:53 PM   #310
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Simple solution- "Stock" classes run commercially available gear, nuff said. If someone like Tekin, Losi, Speedpassion, etc want to offer their customers new profiles for their existing products then I say that's fair game.
I wasn't there in Vegas, but its hard to argue against this idea. I would also add a "claiming rule" to this. If the big races had a rule in effect against prototype equipment in the "controlled classes" for speed controllers and other items of this type, combined with a say $250.00 claim against such product these devises would never been entered in the spec classes. If they were, then people could claim them and then they could be checked for legallity before it would be allowed to be used further by anyone. No manufacturer could afford the cost of losing such an expensive prototype product this way, not to mention the bad publicity that it would cause.

This would not happen in the Modified classes, where I think they should be allowed to use prototype equipment but for sure they should work in a legal way. I think tinkering and/or creating profiles (software) at the races is part of the fun and should be encouraged but to have a speed controller be able to use extra voltage (hardware) that they should not have should never be allowed.
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:04 PM   #311
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As for the other controversy, I'm firmly in the camp where if you gain an advantage by pushing the rules, you're doing something right. Look at every single professional motorsport and they follow the same pattern: one driver, team, chassis, or whatever comes up with something that dominates, and soon after either everybody adopts it or it is outlawed. If we were to outlaw innovation before the fact, we'd be discouraging so much of what makes competition great.
i would agree with you, but show me the rules as to what a speed controll can and can't do.
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:11 PM   #312
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so lets think about this product. maybe this is how it works. It is like the new F1 KERS systems. it recovers lost energy. what if the device took back emf and stored it in the rx pack and then used the 7.4 rx pack as a power source for the motor. I agree that the 200mah-300mah is not enough for the entire race. but what if it wa enough until the next corner. then when you slowed down and the motor generated back emf and that back emf was used to charge the 200mah-300mah rx pack. maybe that is why the pack "has to be soldered to the speedo" this is a very possible solution. as a matter of fact a 10min search on google will yield a solution similar to this. just look up brushless low voltage motor controller. they use the back emf of the motor to help drive the motor faster and the only requirement is a way to kick start the system. And they usually apply a secondary power source to kick start the system.

And I understand that this would be against the ROAR rules because there is something in the rule book that says the motor can not be driven from a secondary power souce. but no one knows how this thing works and no one that know how it works was willing to tell. so I am not sure that any one in tech would have been able to determine that the rx pack was not being used to power the motor. I am not sure how you would be able to tell that. other then with a $2k o-scope. which i did not see on the tech table.

one thing I would have like to see as a rule would be that there is a current limiter. not on the main battery pack to the speedo of course, but from a rx pack to the speedo. if this were a normal install the rx pack would be connected to the rx. the rx will limit the current that is availble to the speedo on the rx interface. but since this configuration was that the seondary battery was connected to the speedo, I would have like the techs to have imposed a current limiting circuit from the secondary battery to the speedo. this circuit would be limited like a booster to about 2amps. if the current was limited to just enough to run the circuit in the speedo, then there would be no way that the secondary power source is used to power the motor. other then the controller taking the secondary power and converting it to a useable current level
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Old 09-15-2009, 12:00 AM   #313
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Again I say congrats to Brian, Peter, Frank and Mario. I bet they are having a good time watching this thread! Thanks for the help and suggestions.

Yang,
I know I charge my lipo rec packs at 1 c or about .2 mah's and it takes roughly 10-15 minutes to put the 40-70 mah back into them. If the rec pack were being charged and discharged quickly like a cap (sorta, if I understand what you're saying) wouldn't the receiver pack get nearly dumped in one short section, and then need to charged back to full capacity before the next turn, or in a matter of seconds or tenths of seconds? I'm all for speculating cuz its fun to think, but I can't imagine what C rate would be required to put ~200 mah into the rec pack after each burst and before each turn . . .I wouldn't think a small receiver pack could sustain that abuse for a lap, much less 8+ minutes. Just thinking . . .
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Old 09-15-2009, 12:17 AM   #314
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Yang,
I know I charge my lipo rec packs at 1 c or about .2 mah's and it takes roughly 10-15 minutes to put the 40-70 mah back into them. If the rec pack were being charged and discharged quickly like a cap (sorta, if I understand what you're saying) wouldn't the receiver pack get nearly dumped in one short section, and then need to charged back to full capacity before the next turn, or in a matter of seconds or tenths of seconds? I'm all for speculating cuz its fun to think, but I can't imagine what C rate would be required to put ~200 mah into the rec pack after each burst and before each turn . . .I wouldn't think a small receiver pack could sustain that abuse for a lap, much less 8+ minutes. Just thinking . . .
you are talking for optimum life span of a battery and not for optimum performance. to give you an idea, the KERS system used for F1 can pack 6.6KW of power into batteries in 1min 20sec. that is roughly 82 watts a second. the storage mechanism for the KERS is a battery or a bank of batteries. so it is possible and it is functional and F1 races run 2hours. And I guarantee that the system is used every lap. so that is roughly 50-60 laps in 2 hours. oh and each use is for 1.1KW for a total of 6 times per lap
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Old 09-15-2009, 12:49 AM   #315
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Default I got a return email from Novak....

and they said they have a new Speeo in the works. It will be interesting to see what they do now. Sucks they are behind and who know how long it will be. For now, I'll get the Tekin.
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