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Old 08-27-2009, 07:31 AM   #121
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Arrow Magazines....

The thing is, you need a group of people who are 110% passionate and focused on many different types of r/c.

The problem within this lies the seperate issue of actually making a magazine production, the two are very seperate lines of interest.

Anyone can take a few pictures of a race, but this also takes time and money to do it, with gas and the hours of driving to get to an event.

Same with any other feature within a magazine. Build reviews will take someones time to build the kit, and then the time to use it.

So, the directors/staff etc etc of the magazine need to come up with info on a wide variety of cars, equipment, races, reviews each month to satisfy the r/c community. They suddenly sound UBER busy to me...

Or, fall into one scale/class of racing that doesnt interest everyone, and as a result, less magazine sales.

To help pay for all this, advertising within a magazine has to come into play. This also has to available at a reasonable rate for interested companies etc, but cost effective enough to help the magazine pay its staff etc etc.
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:34 AM   #122
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What saddens me is that you will believe a BS politically correct answer and not the truth. Seems like when people discuss reality nobody really wants to listen or understand how it works. I can feed every email I get with "sure, haha, that's a great idea we'll get on that" and never do anything, but I'd rather discuss the facts of life.

I see more of the market from both sides than 99% of the people. I deal with racers, hobbyists, and manufactures. MOst racers only see what they race and discount any other factual information.

For example, a similar topic came up with Oval. When RC Driver came out they started this big "we are going to cover oval" and they put it on covers talked to NASCAR and generally went against what was popular. I'm sure as an on-road guy you say oval is dead and discount it. Well we got all these emails how Driver was going to show us and blah blah blah....look at it now. No oval and we have more oval coverage and continual than they did.

And of course everybody reads this as me being some smug prick, but I AM A PROFESSIONAL and I do this for a living I see the market and have deal with it. I get asked my opinion from all sides of the industry. So I think your smug remarks about what I feel not being valid is dumb. Yes it's my opinion like any advice or consulting, but it's based on more than just "I like on road."

and what are we willing to do? We spend thousands of dollar promoting RC and attending races and providing information to RC people. It's not the media's job to fix broken things. In fact, usually when I offer suggestions/solutions I get this BS internet banter about how I know nothing and it's just my opinion. I find it comical really. We also sponsor and promote races in our magazine. Snowbirds, IIC, Reedy, Tamiya TCS...those race ads are usually in our magazine to help promote.

Lets take another example that's brought up...rock crawling. Some people don't think it's big. "I've never seen one" and so on...but you don't do it, why the hell would you see a crawler at an on-road track. They "compete" in the woods. But lets put that aside and look at the amount of products and aftermarket support. It's huge. It's also seen in our 'Racers Rides' where we get readers sending lots of pics of crawlers. If it really was so small would all these pics come in, would all these companies make bodies, tires, speedos, kits? Would one of the few companies, Axial, have grown so much selling basically crawlers?

If you were just at an on-road track you'd never see this. I do.

Everybody seems to skip the fact that I race on-road and actually I'm pretty good. For somebody who doesn't race all the time like I did I can work it. I'm pretty proud to have made the B-Main in the Nitro Sedan Nationals...bumping up 3 times. So don't try and tell me I'm putting anybody down. I'm just looking at facts and trends.

You want "fix it" but even the companies that live on this can't fix it. I can list some of the problems.

1. 1 run tires...the are still useable but pace is off .5-1 second a lap
2. Too expensive
3. Too complex
4. Probably the biggest factor is that...you can't "play" with an onroad car. It's a track car. 85% of the market never goes to the track...even less buy onroad. So you'll never get a kid with a 416 playing in the street and then saying "I want to go race'. Back in the day parkinglot racing brought new people in, it was in front of people. Now we race in some random place in front of nobody. The influx of new people died.
5. The break way too much. I don't want to see anybody argue this. When you crash with a TC you pray it doesn't break...when you crash at 40mph 10 feet in the air with an 1/8-scale you hold full throttle and wait for it to flip over on the wheels.
6. No realism...although it's trying to come back
7. It's out of style (everything is trend an cyclical).


So I have to laugh when people as ME what I'm doing...what the hell are you doing? Are you setting up tracks at the mall? Are you doing anything but race? Or is it somebody elses job to make what you like more popular.

Considering many don't seem to agree with my opinion...why do you think the media or my magazine will help?

So don't read this and get upset, if we want to talk why things are down, we can. Seems like most people would rather be hugged and told "we'll do it' than discuss facts and ways that things can be changed....but mostly we'll just call me a moron, prick who doesn't know anything and continue with "why isn't it bigger?"

I'll see everybody in vegas. I'll be running a bright green WGT and 1/12-scale.
Derek B., this was an excellent post. I am now a subscriber of Xtreme RC. I do not think you are a smug prick. Honest people come off this way, but not to me. In my profession, smug pricks are the ones we hire to get the job done. Honesty is extremely important here, or you lose your clearance and may even face becoming an enemy of the state (Federal Prison).

I can understand entirely what you are saying. However, how about some Op Ed pieces, share your own thoughts. What you would like to see more, inspire people do something to promote on-road RC, or how about some old ideas that worked and made on-road club racing popular? I understand you guys can only do what your advertisers ask you to do, but they can't stop you from making your own columns to share your own thoughts.

Again, why not do your own reviews and be a bit more creative. Review YOUR own cars.

As far as RCGT, I disagree with your blanket statement about them being old cars. Not ALL RCGT cars are like that. At my track, we might bring RCGT back to the scene with the VTA guys. The majority of people who race in VTA have Xray T2'009, Xray T2R Pro, AE TC5, etc. I am assuming in your area, they run old chassis.

Thank you again for your honesty. I, for one, appreciate this honesty in your posting. Thank you.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:55 AM   #123
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We hear the same complaints about what we cover. What we cover on the show is determined by two things: What is popular and what the manufacturers are willing to send. Having read through this entire thread, DerekB is right on the money. He, like us sees this hobby from all angles. For example and more on topic, Xray has seen the TC market shrink in the US and worldwide. You will not see the entire Xray team at large events because they are not focusing on TC right now. They, like Xtreme and RCTVLIVE.COM are a business and to stay profitable you need to go where the interest is.

Derek hit the nail on the head when he spoke of cycles and we believe we will see TC grow again, just not in the way it was. Realism is the hot trend now.........

Go out have fun and race! Oh and you may see a new Losi TC sooner than you think. Jeff
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:16 PM   #124
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Derek hit the nail on the head when he spoke of cycles and we believe we will see TC grow again, just not in the way it was. Realism is the hot trend now.........
BINGO!!!!

We see more VTA racers, and now ABC Hobby and Cup Racer drivers, because of the scale realism.

Speaking of Mini, has RCTV, Xtreme RC, RC Driver, R/C Car Action, etc. seen a spike in this class as well? I know RCGT is starting to show some life. But what it looks like right now, at least from what I see, anything that is affordable and doesn't cost as much as an Xray, is picking up big time.

Am I seeing things correctly?
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:30 PM   #125
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Geezzz fellas,
We all complain when Xray comes out with a new car every 9 months and now we are complaining that new cars aren't coming out frequently enough! On road is not as popular as it once was while off road went through a lull for a while and now is very popular. Its all a cycle that will repeat itself. Maybe on road finally over priced itself with $500 competition kits??
+1 - If new kits were available for $350 retail and went through revisions every 2 years, on road racing would probably be more popular. I stopped running the "competitive" on-road classes because buying a new car every year was too expensive.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:43 PM   #126
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You don't need the newest car every year, that is one thing that is killing the on-road scene, yes I run an X-Ray, but it is a 007, not 009. I just finished 4th at the last Novak race, and 6th in the B-main at the nats. Not to shabby for a soon to be 3 year old car. If anything I was down on power due to running an old Sphere speed control, or else I think I could've snuk into the show at the nats.

And Derek I agree you have to run articles on what is paying the bills, but also think of it this way; Why would a manufacturer spend money to advertise any on-road/oval product in a magazine geared toward off-road and rock crawling?? Seems like the chicken and egg don't it? There are no easy answers, and yes things will change. The only thing that is always a constant is off-road. Rock crawling and the like, will be gone in a few years, and then the next new gotta have one product will be around.

Speaking of crawling, when are these guys going to realize you don't need a $300 transmitter to send a signal 3ft? I mean for real, all you need is a wire and a joystick with how close the drivers get!
And the last I checked, direct wire is faster than 2.4Ghz. Just food for thought!
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:20 PM   #127
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And the last I checked, direct wire is faster than 2.4Ghz. Just food for thought!
Hahaha! Good 'ol REMOTE CONTROL! I think it would be perfect for rock crawlers. RADIO CONTROL should remain with people that like to go far with fast cars and cat run as fast.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:40 PM   #128
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We hear the same complaints about what we cover. What we cover on the show is determined by two things: What is popular and what the manufacturers are willing to send. Having read through this entire thread, DerekB is right on the money. He, like us sees this hobby from all angles. For example and more on topic, Xray has seen the TC market shrink in the US and worldwide. You will not see the entire Xray team at large events because they are not focusing on TC right now. They, like Xtreme and RCTVLIVE.COM are a business and to stay profitable you need to go where the interest is.

Derek hit the nail on the head when he spoke of cycles and we believe we will see TC grow again, just not in the way it was. Realism is the hot trend now.........

Go out have fun and race! Oh and you may see a new Losi TC sooner than you think. Jeff

I agree with you and derek. is there a new losi sedan coming out
any pictures? are you going to have the mi4 on the show?
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:40 PM   #129
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offroad out sells onroad 8:1

I think the main point-- was that if there was less of an offroad bias, perhaps it wouldnt be like that. You just said they dont even advertise the onroad- that couldnt possibly be part of the reason it is selling 1 to every 8...
I'm just amazed that with no advertising, the difference is only 8:1. Not bad for a (supposedly) dead class.

The TOP Photon is a new TC, with little to no advertising, and is sold out everywhere. How long until *any* magazine has a review of that car?
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:07 PM   #130
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I'm just amazed that with no advertising, the difference is only 8:1. Not bad for a (supposedly) dead class.

The TOP Photon is a new TC, with little to no advertising, and is sold out everywhere. How long until *any* magazine has a review of that car?
Smaller sales company, I'd bet if it were AE that would be 20 or more to 1 considering the RTRs and other 1/8-scale versions.

Sold out and popular are not the same thing. If I imported 50 kits and nobody gets them...is that popular? But realistically...I can't review that which never comes to our office.
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:15 PM   #131
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Derek B., this was an excellent post. I am now a subscriber of Xtreme RC. I do not think you are a smug prick. Honest people come off this way, but not to me. In my profession, smug pricks are the ones we hire to get the job done. Honesty is extremely important here, or you lose your clearance and may even face becoming an enemy of the state (Federal Prison).

I can understand entirely what you are saying. However, how about some Op Ed pieces, share your own thoughts. What you would like to see more, inspire people do something to promote on-road RC, or how about some old ideas that worked and made on-road club racing popular? I understand you guys can only do what your advertisers ask you to do, but they can't stop you from making your own columns to share your own thoughts.

Again, why not do your own reviews and be a bit more creative. Review YOUR own cars.

As far as RCGT, I disagree with your blanket statement about them being old cars. Not ALL RCGT cars are like that. At my track, we might bring RCGT back to the scene with the VTA guys. The majority of people who race in VTA have Xray T2'009, Xray T2R Pro, AE TC5, etc. I am assuming in your area, they run old chassis.

Thank you again for your honesty. I, for one, appreciate this honesty in your posting. Thank you.
Thanks man, some people get caught up in debate. I'm passionate and easily "emotional" when talking or debating. Some can handle that, others can't. I also get tired of people who just want something to change but never do it. Also when I talk online I quote one person and use "you" in my text because it's a general term. Often I'm just talking out loud and "you" is used because the person reading it is my intended end user.

We don't just follow advertisers, I mean technically we started a Drift Series here (scale body movement beginning), and we sponsor and race on-road all over. Our Art Director is an on-road National Champ, lol. I think that counts right?

What I meant by "old cars" is that a review of a chassis is really about new cars, and me review a TC5 with a scale body is just reviewing a TC5. It's "old." And I've tried to do this before but when we do reviews I'd rather use a scale body than a Stratus for pics because they look better.

Without discussing details Rick just emailed me a great idea and we're working with him on that....we'll release details when it's in swing so we can keep that content in our magazine.
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:19 PM   #132
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DerekB, you are taking this way too personally. No one here was attacking you or calling you a moron or prick or saying your opinion is invalid. Actually, I thought you felt our opinion was invalid. At any rate stop taking this so personally! Also, I do not discount oval racing as that is part of on-road as well. Where I live we have a carpet oval that is raced on Saturday nights and I do race there. I have nothing against oval, however I do prefer road course.

You do make some valid points and I thank you for that. We on-road fans are just fustrated that our favorite form of rc cars seems to be getting the short end of the deal by the magazines and manufacturers and we are trying to affect some change here. You may not like our methods, but it seems the concept of asking politely does'nt work so we wanted to try a direct in-your -face approach to at the very least get a dialog going which is what has happened here. Hopefully this will lead to more discussions and more people, magazine editors and manufacturers will get involved and maybe together we can do something to improve the on-road racing scene.
I'm not really, so no worries. I just don't like some of the terms and ideas people post.

I'm curious how manufacturers and media are feeding you the short end...you know what kills classes? People don't buy them anymore. Manufacturers would love to sell kits and we'd love to cover them...but when people stop buying them companies stop making them, stop advertising them, and we stop covering them (because there are no kits to review and their is no money coming from them.)

So blame on-road racers first.
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:25 PM   #133
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I agree with you and derek. is there a new losi sedan coming out
any pictures? are you going to have the mi4 on the show?
We are not able to show any pics right now.....sorry. You know it is always super secret squirrel stuff until it is almost released.

As far as the Schumacher Mi4, we have had many of their products on in the past and would love to have the Mi4 on. We will give a call to Shawn or Adam and see what we can do.
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:19 PM   #134
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DerekB, I just extended my subscription with Xtreme for another year!
You seem like a reasonable guy, good posts and honest answers!
Just the kind I like to support! Now i have 1.5 years of Xtreme RC reading to go.

I just hope subscription with Zinio gives you same money as subscription on 'real' paper magazine.


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Old 08-28-2009, 07:15 AM   #135
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DerekB you are right about much of the blame starts with the on-road racers themselves. Many don't do much to support it and many give up on it way to easily.

I do agree that part of the problem is that it has become a money-pit for many as it can be very expensive to run. $500 touring cars is ridiculous!!
Even pan cars have gotten more expensive pushing close to $300 for a pan car!; and that's stock out of the box with no additional option parts. Could easily get close to $400 hopped up and that's still without motor or electrics!

I love the idea that sclae realism appears to be making a return to rc cars and I love the new HPI Cup Racer and the ABC car. This is the direction that touring cars for the masses needs to go. Simple touring cars with beautiul scale bodies that look like real cars with sideview mirrors and wipers. How about bring back the scale interiors with drivers and dashboards like Tamiya used to do!

Then what needs to happen next is some sort of governing body such as ROAR need to institute some very strict rules limiting the development of these cars so as to keep them affordable for all. Keep it cost-controlled somehow.

Another thing I would like to see is for Trinity to bring back the Street Spec pan car. Remember those? The time might be right for it's return along with the cost controlled racing series it inspired.

Would you be willing to talk up these ideas in your magazine to see if we can get this going? Perhaps conduct a poll? Devot an entire article, not just a column, to this subject. I think it might start something.

Let us know what you think.
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