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Old 08-24-2009, 05:09 PM   #76
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OKay-

So- then, I look at companies like Ofna-- I dont know of their actual origin, i assume over seas.. but they had these cars a few years back that looked an awful lot like Kyoshos and Mugens..

the HB, Xray and AE cars sure looked a lot like a 415 when they came out.. minus some geometry guesses.. i mean, like i said-- would it be as blatent if they called it the rocket2000 and made it all black?

these cases are not too unlike this. I mean, again- aside from the blue, and all of the markings.

AT LEAST- they are not asking top dollar.. or calling it a 416.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:22 PM   #77
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That's pretty untrue. You just chose to look at what became more popular than TC. Crawling grew and became a popular. So all the companies focused their marketing on that. We sponsor a Drift event, lol and have done that for years (James and Dave run it).

But to be honest I don't see onroad coming back until some things change. Price, durability, and an entry level class. (I won't even mention the cost of tires which with rubber can be 1 runs).
Are you crazy? Price...durability...entry level class. Off-road nitro is as expensive if not more expensive to race than electric TC. A brushless motor lasts longer than a nitro engine. A decent nitro motor is 250 minimum. Off-road tires are done after a few runs as well depending on the surface and a set of off-road tires and wheels can cost 80 bucks.

IMO
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:37 PM   #78
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No- offroad is easier to start out with. Its no cheaper. I have done about every form of racing there is with the exception of oval.

You can go outside and run any offroad car anywhere.

So like lotus said-- bashers become "racers."

The funny thing is that in my area, offroad is king. There are a ton of guys who race offroad- and they actually think it is harder than onroad. When i came to their track two years ago when i moved back to buffalo- they said "he runs on road, he'll never keep up" or "he'll be in the basement mains"... first race with my truggy, with the absoulte cheapest .21 money could buy (i dont even know how to tune nitro motors) TQ'd and put the next closest guy down a half a lap-- on a 45 second a lap track.

The point im trying to make is that not only has the world shifted to off road, but they have no respect for what onroad is.

I think that was the point-- i was interrupted halfway through this, and lost my train of thought.. kids..
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:09 PM   #79
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I'm not sure what is happening right now. On road is down, but we're getting a lot of guys for RCGT, Trans Am and F1. Yesterday the local series had 3 mains for RCGT and 3 mains for trans am, and 2 heats of F1, besides 13.5 and sportsman (novice).

The thing about this stuff is that the tires are good until they're bald and worn through. The bodies look great, but there's not a lot of advantage of one over another. It's a little slower.

I think people want to race on road, they just don't want to dump cubic money into it.

Actually, if you want a shocker, look at dirt oval. I was just at a race that had over 200 entries for a 2 day event. They had 90+ MOD sprint cars
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:55 PM   #80
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i think the difference is that it costs alot more money to be competitive in on road racing. the small changes in your car make a large difference and requires a lot more tools i think compared to off road. now i could be wrong, though it seems a lot more is required to keep up in on road these days. you cant roll up with a tt01 and expect to keep up.first you need the "racing" chassis. not only that, you have to have the tire warmers, the tire compounds, all the adjustment tools, the set up table, set up station, extra sets of tires....when you look at the whole picture, it is A LOT of money. granted most of it is acquired over time, i know when i first showed up at my track it was like a big *WHOA* these guys take this shit seriously. all i showed up with was my car, my radio, charger, battery and tool box with a few simple things. i felt like an outcast!
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:00 PM   #81
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i think the difference is that it costs alot more money to be competitive in on road racing. the small changes in your car make a large difference and requires a lot more tools i think compared to off road. now i could be wrong, though it seems a lot more is required to keep up in on road these days. you cant roll up with a tt01 and expect to keep up.first you need the "racing" chassis. not only that, you have to have the tire warmers, the tire compounds, all the adjustment tools, the set up table, set up station, extra sets of tires....when you look at the whole picture, it is A LOT of money. granted most of it is acquired over time, i know when i first showed up at my track it was like a big *WHOA* these guys take this shit seriously. all i showed up with was my car, my radio, charger, battery and tool box with a few simple things. i felt like an outcast!
I agree partly with what you say. I remember the days of my beginning and I was exactly the same. Car, radio, battery (only one Nicd) and two leads to charge from the car battery (I flattened it on one occasion).

But you don't need most of the paraphernalia we lug around these days. You can for instance warm your tires by doing two laps just before the race. Nw that we have Lipos we don't need to nurse the batteries at no end to extract performance. With brushless we don't need to cut comms every other race, and so on.

And quite frankly, most people I see have cars way above their skills, which is why they don't get the results they aim for. Of course they blame the car, this and that. Quite often people are surprised I leave them a couple of laps down and then come to look at my car and are surprised to find it's just a TA05 or some god forsaken Yokomo from last century (no, really). I think most would expect to find at least some illegal motor or some exotic speedo (I actually still run brushed motors just because I have them) or some outlandish batteries (judging by the questions they ask). There is no secret to it. I took a long time (probably longer than others) to learn how to use my cars, but patience pays off.

Just for the heck of it recently I ressurected the old Tamiya 2400mAh nicd race pack that I abandoned a good few years ago and found it is still competitive. So there you go. I am after all human and a target of hype and advertising/marketing as much as the next person, but at least I admit it. We only have ourselves to blame for the money we spend, not the manufacturers.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:58 AM   #82
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Well, it is good to see so much back-and-forth discussion on this subject of biased coverage.

To DerekB, I appreciate you're responding apparently as a representative of one of the rc magazines; it's good to see that you are paying attention to this issue. Thank you. And many of your points are well taken, especially when it comes to some forms of on-road being overly expensive and complicated, and the need for a pure spec or low cost class. In the mid 90's parking lot racing with F1 cars and then touring cars become very popular and then several things happened to ruin it. The cars became ever more complex and EXPENSIVE. And you are right, people became lazy and off-roads' appeal grew because of a perception that it was easier to do.

However, the rc magazines are still not off the hook as their extremely limited coverage of on-road and 90% coverage of off-road each month is making things even worse. You outlined a few on-road related articles in your current issue, but that's still piddle compared to the off-road coverage, and there is yet another off-road vehicle featured on the cover just like the month before and the month before and the month before; need I go on?

You have a responsibility to address this issue. If you have opinions on what is wrong with the on-road scene and ideas on how to fix it, then talk about it in your magazine. Voice those ideas and push the manufacturers to address the issue as well. Get the public involved with opinion polls and maybe even sponsor some sort of on-road series that gets back to basics.

The point here is to do something about it. I stand by my earlier statement that most of the public are like sheep that can be led in whichever direction you magazines send them; and right now you are sending them straight to the off-road scene with only a glance at on-road. As I said earlier, make things equal, 50% off-road and 50% on-road. Same with the magazine cover;
one month off-road and one month on-road and so on. Equal coverage is basically what we are looking for.

To all of you out there who have posted about this issue I thank you and ask that you keep it up and send those emails anyway and we can make the magazines and the manufacturers listen!!

Now let's see if any of the other magazines respond!
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:07 AM   #83
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And another point= why does it have to be a kit on the cover?

Why cant it be a shot of some racing action? Once upon a time, there was a nice spread of Masami's cars on the cover.. why dont the world champions cars get reviewed to the extent they used to?

Look at any other magazine, be it MX action or the like, they have racing shots on the front a lot of times...

just a thought.


More racing, less bashing in the mags. Perhaps if this was how it was- we wouldnt have the low numbers at tracks? uhm.. maybe?

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Old 08-25-2009, 08:02 AM   #84
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The cost of equipment puts off anyone if they are dead against it between having the best or some cheap stuff that they know they wont win with.

Buying the right equipment is also important too, and i'm sure some people are going to be put off by spending money only to be told that it's not good enough when they go to race with it.

Onroad r/c is one hobby where having the "best" for one individual is the difference between winning and loosing races.

It is probably the most advanced class in technology out of all forms of r/c too what with lipo and brushless being very common at the race track, even at club level...
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:17 AM   #85
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I really have a hard time believing rock crawling is more popular than on-road
Maybe in southern California.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:35 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Lotus View Post

To DerekB, I appreciate you're responding apparently as a representative of one of the rc magazines; it's good to see that you are paying attention to this issue. Thank you. And many of your points are well taken, especially when it comes to some forms of on-road being overly expensive and complicated, and the need for a pure spec or low cost class. In the mid 90's parking lot racing with F1 cars and then touring cars become very popular and then several things happened to ruin it. The cars became ever more complex and EXPENSIVE. And you are right, people became lazy and off-roads' appeal grew because of a perception that it was easier to do.
It's good to see respond from a magazine representative too.

But F1 seems to be back in form, why not run something in the magazine on it. Take RCCA's review on the new Tamiya F104, it was online only and you had to be a member of their PAID website on top of a normal subscriber!
That kind of loses the point if you ask me! it really angers me, like paying a subscription isn't enough!
There are more F1 racers on our local track than touring drivers, it's cheap (ezrun 3000kv and 35A esc, Yeah Racing 3600 lipo's and Zen tires), easy to maintain, plenty of speed, reliable and it's faster than touring in laptimes!

Just like M03/M04/M05, the M05 is lipo friendly, I just added 60 gram of weight in the M05Pro and it was spot on. All are using same motor and esc in that class also, Ezrun 3000kv's also and the M-Chassi class is just 1 sec off the F1's pace a lap. The level is equal it all comes down to how good you drive, there are no money race or how many options you got!

I subscribe to 3 magazines (RCCA, Xtreme RC and R/C Car) and i think RC Car is the best so far, it has most on-road. Xtreme RC had Reedy race of champions coverage in september issue atleast, and it was good! Thank you!
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:59 AM   #87
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[...] And you are right, people became lazy and off-roads' appeal grew because of a perception that it was easier to do.

However, the rc magazines are still not off the hook as their extremely limited coverage of on-road and 90% coverage of off-road each month is making things even worse. You outlined a few on-road related articles in your current issue, but that's still piddle compared to the off-road coverage, and there is yet another off-road vehicle featured on the cover just like the month before and the month before and the month before; need I go on?
[...]
You have a responsibility to address this issue. If you have opinions on what is wrong with the on-road scene and ideas on how to fix it, then talk about it in your magazine. Voice those ideas and push the manufacturers to address the issue as well. Get the public involved with opinion polls and maybe even sponsor some sort of on-road series that gets back to basics.

Now let's see if any of the other magazines respond!
Not sure you're right there.

Magazines have their own agenda and it is their bussiness on the line so I doubt they'll accept advice from us.

We do however have the best leverage there is on manufacturers and magazines alike. Our hard earned cash. We make the decision where it is spent and I am pretty sure manufacturers as well as magazines take note. That why I think the current off-road domination in reports and on the market is not by accident or consipracy. The market has spoken. We may not like it (I only have one buggy and that's for bashing, not racing) but that's what the market wants.

Sure, the magazines can be more or less intelligent in the way they go about their bussiness, but ultimately they have to follow the public or perish.

I would like to suggest here that the way I would do it would be like some of the more interesting real car magazines which report on new models and compare them with equivalent cars of yesteryear to judge fairly the progress. Who here wouldn't like to see a back to back comparison between say the Xray 08 and the Xray 09? With an honest assessment of cost versus progress?

But we needn't the magazines do it for us. We have the net and we can do it ourselves. There are nice websites where independent people take it upon themselves to do the work and spend the cash and then write for all of us to judge for ourselves. Oople is one such site (unfortunately deals with off road again, but has the right approach), if you've never seen it, give it a go.

Thsi forum is another chance at doing the same thing. We can all come back and report honestly what we have found about our own cars, leaving aside the ego and the fact that sometimes we have to admit we made a mistake in choosing this or that.

Another way to counter the trend is to just stick with spec/low cost classes if you're upset you have to dish out big money every time a new car comes along. Nobody can make you buy it. If the big companies see that nobody is interested in their new car targeted at mod (where you have to spend the big money), they'll stop producing them and focus once again on what sells.

Never underestimate the market power of the on-road community!

And leave the magazines to their public. They're not going to listen to a small group of die hard on-road fans no matter how vocal.

One last thing about crawlers. I think the huge success in this class comes on the back of a large number of people who have experimented and built their rigs from scratch until eventually major companies took note and wanted a share of the emerging market. But such is the success I think it would not be sustainable were it not for the huge possibilities unleashed for home (made) tuning. I am pretty sure nearly 100% of the kits are modified as soon as they're put together straight out of the box and I think you'd be hard pressed to find two identically modified rigs. This is where the success comes from. Try as they might, the big companies can not keep up with the ideas popping up all the time in the crawler world and some may have had loses with hopups which by the time they hit the market were obsolete already. And I think the trend will continue because of the difficult to constrain nature of crawling.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:06 AM   #88
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I'm not a regular reader of XRC but the latest issue I picked up seemed pretty balanced to me. Sure there were more offroad articles but that's the industry trend right now. You can't call a magazine biased because it's following the trend. At least onroad coverages that should have been covered were mostly all there. Now RCCA on the other hand..

With that said, I wholeheartedly disagree to the statement that TC is dead. Something like 235mm 1/10th is dead. A segment that still attracts 100+ racers in a single race in this downturn of the economy is definitely not dead. That IMO was a very poor choice of wording and statements like that only serve to steer newcomers away from the onroad segment of the hobby.

And I don't know about other parts of the country but where I live, onroad is still quite popular and I don't see the class going away in any measurable amount of time. At my home track (Blue Diamond R/C at New Castle, Delaware), the dominating class is 200mm nitro with at least 3 mains every club race. We race offroad Saturdays and onroad Sundays, and the # of entrances in both segments are very similar. There's also a traveling onroad series that focuses on VTA/RCGT with good # of entries every time they race. Oh and at another local track (Jackson Raceway, home of the 2009 Xray Challenge), the offroad track is abandoned due to lack of interest while the onroad track was freshly rebuilt to a national level track .

Not to mention that there's a new indoor onroad track opening nearby for the upcoming winter.

I feel the shift towards offroad is just a part of natural cycle and given time the interest will shift back to onroad (and so forth). I remember back in early-mid nineties when it was mostly offroad. Then the TC boom hit and everyone and his cousin were racing TC's. And look where we are now. Let's just try to make the best out of it .
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:21 AM   #89
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[...]
I feel the shift towards offroad is just a part of natural cycle and given time the interest will shift back to onroad (and so forth). I remember back in early-mid nineties when it was mostly offroad. Then the TC boom hit and everyone and his cousin were racing TC's. And look where we are now. Let's just try to make the best out of it .
That's actually quite interesting. I can not confirm, but if others have seen the same trend, I can propose the explanation might lie with people wanting a change for a while and in fact the cycle is driven by a core number of addicted fans shifting every so often from on to off road and back. Of course, the die hard fans keep the out of fashion trend going.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:46 AM   #90
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Actually, I could care less about race coverages. Seriously. I think Derek hit the nail on the head on that one. Because honestly, we have fun playing amongst ourselves than some factory driver coming by with a ton of free parts and pre-setup cars and demolishing people. Sure it gives a challenge, but honestly, big deal. If they pay for parts and cars like everyone else does, much better.

I am more interested in seeing whats coming down the pike. What new innovations are in store for us. Race coverages, meh. New cars, new designs, new innovations, SPOT ON!

But we won't see much if there is no coverage in magazines. The off-road scene seems to have tapered off in terms of innovations, given how similar the off-road vehicles are looking right now. That is not interesting to me. Nor are rock-crawlers (are those really popular? I don't see anyone in my area that has one).

And like someone else said earlier, RCGT and Trans Am are TAKING OFF big time, along with ABC Hobby mini cars, as well as HPI's Cup Racer. They are affordable, have realistic bodies, and a huge following because of how affordable the cars are versus the racing TCs. Why not cover Trans Am, RCGT, and Mini cars?

Thanks for your time, Derek B.
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