R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

View Poll Results: Do you feel that such a grid would be a positive addition to your event?
Yes. The point of qualifying is to get the better position on the grid. 84 80.77%
No. Not digging the challenge. 20 19.23%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-28-2009, 04:32 AM   #46
Tech Elite
 
razzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Durban, South Africa
Posts: 2,810
Default

Aggree with niznai that penalties is the only way guys learn discipline.
We have a race referee at race control or on the drivers stand and the winner or a experienced racer from the previous race does his marshalling duties as a 2nd race referee on the opposite end of the drivers stand.
These guys issue warnings and penalties and it works great for us.
__________________
Casterracing ZX1.5R
casterracing EX-1 Pro, SP Silver Arrow
TOP Racing Scythe, SP 17.5, SP GT Pro 2.0
TOP Racing Scythe, SP 4.5 V2, Hobbywing Xerun 120SD 2.0
TOP Racing Scythe, SP 13.5, Hobbywing Xerun 120SD 2.0
razzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:05 AM   #47
Tech Master
 
Danny-b23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Posts: 1,335
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by razzor View Post
Aggree with niznai that penalties is the only way guys learn discipline.
We have a race referee at race control or on the drivers stand and the winner or a experienced racer from the previous race does his marshalling duties as a 2nd race referee on the opposite end of the drivers stand.
These guys issue warnings and penalties and it works great for us.
In every form of racing, there's guys that don't care about penalties.
__________________
RC America|XRAY|ORCA|Motiv|EA Motorsports
Danny Buck
WCICS Rep - Round 1, Saskatoon, SK
Danny-b23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:09 AM   #48
Super Moderator
 
Cpt.America's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 11,081
Trader Rating: 52 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny-b23 View Post
In every form of racing, there's guys that don't care about penalties.
If they get docked a lap or something they will care
__________________
A big thanks to my sponsors:
- Fantom Racing - www.fantomracing.com -
- Fusion Graphix- www.fusiongraphix.com -
- RCSpecialties -
Cpt.America is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:12 AM   #49
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by razzor View Post
Aggree with niznai that penalties is the only way guys learn discipline.
We have a race referee at race control or on the drivers stand and the winner or a experienced racer from the previous race does his marshalling duties as a 2nd race referee on the opposite end of the drivers stand.
These guys issue warnings and penalties and it works great for us.
The U.S. doesn't do driving penalties.

I am not sure what is going on with R/C racing these days. First we have to have so many classes just so more drivers get the satisfaction of making "the main". And now we want to spread the grid out so much that there is no possibility of contact in the first turn.

Maybe racing should be turned into a series of controlled practice sessions with no winners or loser.

Last edited by Rick Hohwart; 07-28-2009 at 09:27 AM.
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:16 AM   #50
Tech Adept
 
Thirtybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Metrot Detroit, MI
Posts: 233
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

I gave this issue more thought over the last couple days. I voted for more space, but that's coming from someone who is running in a class where there are multiple laps seperating first through fifth. In this case, I want larger gaps.

Now, if we had a full field of 10 cars per main, and the qualifying was tight, then I think less spacing would be okay. Penalties and DQ's for rough driving would be my dream though - I always seem to wind up being the one punted...

However...

Our track doesn't have fixed starting positions on the track, and we've tried a bunch of things in 13.5 TC and the most spacing we could use (about 8 feet/2.4m) on our 100'x36'(30mx11m) track has resulted in the best racing. You still have the challenges of avoiding the boards and needing marshalling, and you still have to pass backmarkers cleanly, but you don't just throw all the qualifying work you did to the wind in corner #1 because the 10th place qualifier is overgeared using and SPX on profile 8 having the full straight to ramp it up!
__________________
Racing a Kawada SV-10 in 2010
http://omgitsakawada.blogspot.com/

The VTA Photon! (Inactive - back to the Kawada!)
http://vtaphoton.blogspot.com/
Thirtybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:19 AM   #51
Tech Elite
 
hairy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In the Good ole' U.S.A.
Posts: 2,323
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by razzor View Post
After all the race is won at the end of 5 mins not at the first corner.


o.k if you believe you can make up 30 meters on me with equal cars in 5 minutes then you really should be a factory driver for several manufacturers. think about it carefully that distance is hard to make up if the first driver makes no mistakes.
the staggered start and penalities are really the BEST way to RACE,not qualify
I raced oval for too many years to count and the stagger start ment you had to be on your "A" game from beginning to end and isn't that what the racing is really about?
__________________
MERLIN RACING
"He once ran a marathon because it was on his way"
Logic is a lost art!
You are defined in life by how you respond to defeat!
hairy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:20 AM   #52
Regional Moderator
 
mrrcguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jonesboro Akansas
Posts: 3,157
Trader Rating: 25 (100%+)
Default

It nice to see so much interest in this topic and I have read some valid points. Lets not forget though that this thread was started just to raise the question. (hence the title)

I wanted to see what happened with such a grid, so we tried it and most seemed to like it while others did not. Shocker!

No need to get overly concern or offended by the concept of being force to race with such a grid, as last time I checked I dont call the shots in IFMAR, ROAR, BRCA or whatever. I do advise you to give it a shot though. Seems kinda silly just to stomp feet and have a hissy over something one has not tried.

You dont have to have a super huge track or staightaway to make it happen. Even if your back stretch is just 100 feet it will work. Use that stretch for the first 5 or 6 spots with the remaining cars wrapped around the corner. The point it just to keep people from crowding up so they can bum rush the start. All this talk about just trying to help the drivers in the front is rubbish and this can be best seen by experience. In my opinion the worst place to start with a traditionaly tight grid is anywhere in the middle of the grid. With the grid stretched out though this all changes because everyone has a much better chance of getting through the first lap clean.
mrrcguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:23 AM   #53
Tech Elite
 
hairy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In the Good ole' U.S.A.
Posts: 2,323
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny-b23 View Post
In every form of racing, there's guys that don't care about penalties.
o.k so we penalise the entire field for that?
Any racers that has put in any real time at all can tell a hacker from a good racer without any problem.And as far as "not caring about penalties" disqualifing them will either get their attention or they just won't come back to race. I would rather see one car not come back ,then several cars not return because if you don't make it to the top three you ain't got much of a chance to win. right?
__________________
MERLIN RACING
"He once ran a marathon because it was on his way"
Logic is a lost art!
You are defined in life by how you respond to defeat!
hairy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:31 AM   #54
Tech Elite
 
hairy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In the Good ole' U.S.A.
Posts: 2,323
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Q i don't see anyone stomping their feet and having a hissy fit just good ,very good discussing going on.
I have raced at your track several times and was really shocked when qualifing 7th I was sooo far back from the front,I remember feeling like I HAD to hammer the throttle at the start to have a chance to win.Giveing the top qualifier a full straight away lead just never had made sense to me.
by the way are you going to have any big races coming up? I just might make the 450 mile trip back.
__________________
MERLIN RACING
"He once ran a marathon because it was on his way"
Logic is a lost art!
You are defined in life by how you respond to defeat!
hairy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:45 AM   #55
Regional Moderator
 
mrrcguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jonesboro Akansas
Posts: 3,157
Trader Rating: 25 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairy View Post
Q i don't see anyone stomping their feet and having a hissy fit just good ,very good discussing going on.
I have raced at your track several times and was really shocked when qualifing 7th I was sooo far back from the front,I remember feeling like I HAD to hammer the throttle at the start to have a chance to win.Giveing the top qualifier a full straight away lead just never had made sense to me.
by the way are you going to have any big races coming up? I just might make the 450 mile trip back.
Good discussion indeed. Sorry Mike, but I have very little interest in hosting any "big" races in the near future. I have my hands full in other ventures at the moment. I have been enjoying working with my regulars though as they are really starting to catch on to this on road stuff. They are buying set-up tools and even using them. I really enjoy teaching them and watching them advance.
mrrcguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 09:49 AM   #56
Tech Elite
 
hairy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In the Good ole' U.S.A.
Posts: 2,323
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Bummer dude! maybe I can make it up anyway
__________________
MERLIN RACING
"He once ran a marathon because it was on his way"
Logic is a lost art!
You are defined in life by how you respond to defeat!
hairy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 10:03 AM   #57
Tech Regular
 
jhwnissan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Posts: 407
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
Maybe racing should be turned into a series of controlled practice sessions with no winners or loser.
Hmmm... somehow I had a feeling someone was gonna say this. Why don't we just give trophies out to everyone at the end of a season as well? Because half the fun in trying to accel and improve! That's the American way. If someone isn't satisfied, that's just the way it goes and there are plenty of classes for others to have fun in without having to penalize those who succeed. That's what you are doing if you were to make it a practice session instead of a race in the main.
__________________
Josh Howard on RCNEWB.COM
Drawing rc car body madness in a Bunker....
Rare Losi R/C Belt Maker Extraordinaire
Need belts or parts? I can help.
SWs, RWs, XX-4s, XXX-S
jhwnissan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 10:12 AM   #58
Tech Master
 
Danny-b23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Posts: 1,335
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairy View Post
o.k so we penalise the entire field for that?
Any racers that has put in any real time at all can tell a hacker from a good racer without any problem.And as far as "not caring about penalties" disqualifing them will either get their attention or they just won't come back to race. I would rather see one car not come back ,then several cars not return because if you don't make it to the top three you ain't got much of a chance to win. right?
You're still losing members if they quit. There's also a chance they take some people with them. The last thing this hobby needs is less people.
__________________
RC America|XRAY|ORCA|Motiv|EA Motorsports
Danny Buck
WCICS Rep - Round 1, Saskatoon, SK
Danny-b23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 10:33 AM   #59
Tech Elite
 
oeoeo327's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,644
Trader Rating: 74 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
The U.S. doesn't do driving penalties.

I am not sure what is going on with R/C racing these days. First we have to have so many classes just so more drivers get the satisfaction of making "the main". And now we want to spread the grid out so much that there is no possibility of contact in the first turn.

Maybe racing should be turned into a series of controlled practice sessions with no winners or loser.
A sad, but true assessment of American culture, as everyone's a "winner" these days. What ever happened to people accepting defeat, and using the lessons learned as a basis for improvement??? If the drivers toward the front of the grid want to avoid getting collected in the first turn, they should try to make it a point to be the first ones leaving at the tone. Otherwise, spreading the field at the start does nothing more than turn the most exciting portion of the race into fast-paced parade laps; but if that's what it takes to keep attendance numbers up during these tough times, so be it...
__________________
Founding member of the Solid Gold Racing Team - Mediocrity, redefined...
oeoeo327 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2009, 10:42 AM   #60
Tech Elite
 
niznai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: All over the place
Posts: 2,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhwnissan View Post
Why don't we just give trophies out to everyone at the end of a season as well? Because half the fun in trying to accel and improve! That's the American way.
I think this view of the hobby has the potential to lose even more fans. I enjoy the hobby whether I lose or win the race. I am interested firstly in becoming the best driver/tuner I can be and I consider my race results one form of assessment of the progress, but not the only way to do it (or the most important). I have lost races that I am more proud of than races I have won (and god knows I lost a fair few). If I put up a really good fight and give the winner a really hard time, I found it more often than not brings up the best in both of us (or however many there are of us) and the show is always memorable indeed. I think that's when everybody is a winner and that's what I seek to achieve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razzor View Post
We used to have our starting grid staggered at 1 meter gaps but since last year we increased the gap to 2 meters and for regional and national events to 3 meters.
What we found is the larger gaps have benefitted the racers as there is virtually no first corner pile ups.
i would rather fight to gain position from a longer starting grid than being taken out on the first corner by the guy further back coming into the corner too hot.
After all the race is won at the end of 5 mins not at the first corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairy View Post


o.k if you believe you can make up 30 meters on me with equal cars in 5 minutes then you really should be a factory driver for several manufacturers. think about it carefully that distance is hard to make up if the first driver makes no mistakes.
the staggered start and penalities are really the BEST way to RACE,not qualify
I raced oval for too many years to count and the stagger start ment you had to be on your "A" game from beginning to end and isn't that what the racing is really about?
I don't think the race is won or lost in the last minute (unless someone makes a mistake or has unbelivable bad luck), but I have pulled all the way from the back of the grid to the top many times so I think it can work. Sure, if cars are matched and drivers very good it can be very difficult or nigh-on impossible, but I'm still going to try.

on the other hand if you get wiped out in the first corner and then another six cars hit you as you're trying to regain control of your car, you end up losing more than just 30feet of track to the first car that makes it through the carnage. This I think is the rationale behind the starting grid. To give the drivers some sort of fair chance to win according to their skill. This is what we test in the qualifiers and reward with the grid position, on the assumption that the TQ has the best chance at winning. Placing them last on the grid (which is equivalent to allowing a random pileup in the first corner decide who gets away from the pack) would only result in a poorer race. The whole idea revolves around allowing the top guys dog fight it at the lead while the rest of the pack is fighting with equal (or closely matched) opponents further behind as the cars stretch out on the track. This controls the interference between faster and slower cars/skilled and less experinced drivers. Mixing the two categories would not produce spectacular racing as I think you would all agree and would really not benefit anyone.

Sure, punishing/disqualifying is a double edged sword, you can find yourself racing alone pretty soon, so I think it has to be kept to an absolute minimum, just enough to allow some serious spectacle to develop free of the random interference of some car abruptly veering left and taking you out as you're lapping them for the third time whilst dogfighting with the race leader. This is what really shits the whole hobby/show for me whether I am driving or just watching. And I am sure most people on the forum would have witnessed at some point in their racing life some spectacular racing well worthy of top world class competition at their humble local club. This is what has me coming back for more, but it is exactly the part that is in danger if racing is not managed carefully in respect to penalties versus grid spacing/start technique.
__________________
Team Greasy Weasel

The best upgrade to any car is some driver skill.
niznai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 07:20 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net