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Old 07-22-2009, 12:43 AM   #1
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Default Brushed vs Brushless

The issue of brushed v brushless still intrigues me. What is the consensus of the masses, which is better in performance? I am not referring to maintainence just pure performance on preferably on asphalt track with a straight of 52 meters and a tight twisty infield.
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:45 AM   #2
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I am referring specifically to the 19t and 27t motors
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:55 AM   #3
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Brushless should win almost always from now on. Brushed technology has virtually stopped. I would not expect to see much (if any) new products from here on out in Brushed. Also the technology was held back with fairly strict rules on brushed motors. Now with Brushless, the advancements are coming fast and furious. Most of it is in regard to timing and Boost settings in the speedo itself.

If BL is too expensive for you though, or any newcomer, you can get setup with used brushed gear that is excellent in value for dirt cheap prices. Its a shame that new racers aren't taking advantage of this at racetracks.

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Old 07-22-2009, 03:28 AM   #4
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Brushed motors are great for budget builds. That's about it.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:35 AM   #5
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brushed commutation nogood than brushless

brushed wear nogood than brushless

brushed have good dragbrake, similar to breaking engine,rather brushless

brushed had better safe run on dirt or under water run,
as this method used on brakein. since its sensorless,
manual timing would be classic too

due to it's mass, work's on some kit such rockcrawlers on clod type similarity

brushed motor will always works on any esc due to ease of simple tech
but some factory disabled it on brushless esc, while any kind of chips/fet will
actually works on brushed motor polar, i call them bad factory.
example:
longtime ago novak build ss esc then they made ss+ brushed enabled
which required no more chip to add, as off just the software in esc.
but at that time one method wiring avaliable only.
the next they build gtb. same as ss+ wiring method.

Lrp had 2 brushed wiring method on bullets esc, forward/brake,
forward/brake/reversed and surely brushless,
thats wise and very good sugestion, but sadly not to sxx.

as far i know brushed system doesn't required complicated controller as brushless system.
while brushless system controller will work for brushed motor.
because brushless system controllers still using brushed controllers method
to work on brushless motors.

thats why we will not leave the brushed motors, but some factory forced us to leave them. simply production reason on the motors bl.
we might have protest.

BUT I LIKE THEM BOTH, brushed and brushless.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:44 AM   #6
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On a very small track, it can still be possible to get a 27t to compete with 13.5, but both need a different driving style/car set up to work well.

13.5 just makes things easier for you though, (in terms of performance and looking after it) as with a well setup car 13.5 should have the edge over a 27t as it is more efficient and wont need stripping down as often and skimming.
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:02 AM   #7
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The consistancy in performance of a brushless motor is far surperior then a brushed motor any day. With a brushless there isn't a need to worry about it slowing down during a race. Ever since switching to brushless just over a month ago all of my times at the end of a race were about the same as they were at the start, unlike a brushed where I was going about 1 second slower towards the end.
Consistancy of a brushless far out weights any pros you'll get with a brushed.
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:35 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
On a very small track, it can still be possible to get a 27t to compete with 13.5, but both need a different driving style/car set up to work well.
In answer to the original question I would say it's like with everything else. If you know how to use it either has the potential to beat the other one.

Re the above quote, at our track which is not small nor large, brushed motors are doing very well compared to brushless. Even in the 540 class where black can motors can and have outclassed 21.5 b/l.

Likewise in stock and so on.

But as said above this doesn't make one better than the other inherently. There are pros and cons like everywhere else and some of these have already been mentioned.

Even from the original question one can tell the person asking it assumes the track characteristics would have some bearing on the answer, so it is implied that the answer is just a compromise valid in a certain situation. Generally speaking I think that's the best answer, and there you have it, it's in your question!
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Old 07-22-2009, 05:31 AM   #9
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My explanation was very loose as there is no true comparison between brushed and brushless motors, that aside, yes I would totally agree with you niznai and what's already been said

For me, brushless just makes my life easier, no worrying about a commutator, springs or brushes...
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Old 08-05-2009, 07:19 PM   #10
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Due to heat dissipation and other physical limitations, most devices must operate within the SOA, the Safe Operating Area. This is an area imposed on the volt-ampere characteristic for a DC device, where the power dissipation must remain within the SOA to protect the device from thermal or other failure.

If a brush motor has the same can volume as a brushless motor, the brushless will have a larger SOA, and the brushless DC motor is therefore considered the inherently better machine. The electric coils are on the can for a brushless motor and get better heat sinking than the coils on the armature in a brush motor. Also the commutator on a brush motor is a loss of energy in the form of friction. Thus the brushless is capable of making more power with greater efficiency.

The brush motor is still a better machine in a servo application -- a position control system, since it permits very good position control over a mechanical load. Most industrial controls use brush motors for this reason, although brushless controls are gaining in servo applications for the reasons stated above.

The need for speed in RC racing with good efficiency in a long race makes the brushless, in almost all cases, an inherently better technology going forward.

Good efficiency at high power keeps your battery fresh later in the race, other factors kept equal, so mechanical power output does not fade as early for a more efficient system.

If the brushless motor uses regenerative braking, this improves efficiency, since the battery is recharged a little during regenerative braking. This is the benefit of a hybrid electric car. But as mentioned above, this increases complexity of design in the ESC. With modern power electronics improving all the time, this is becoming more and more economical. Some day electric cars will be far superior to the modern internal combustion car.

Last edited by SystemTheory; 08-05-2009 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Added Last Two Paragraphs
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:11 PM   #11
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Talking

my gawd where in the hell do you live?

lemme help you out

brushed = rabbit ears and 19 inch black and white TV

brushless = direct tv every channel with HD and free channel 596 with a 60 inch lcd TV


GET THE PICTURE??????
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
On a very small track, it can still be possible to get a 27t to compete with 13.5, but both need a different driving style/car set up to work well.
The difference in top speed between the two is negligible, its the way that it gets there that matters. Brushless has alot more torque than brushed so it accelerates like a *bleep* *bleep* compared to brushed. Not that brushed was ever slow

If you can get up to speed faster then you will be quicker, simple as that but driving style does come in to it as tc3team says. With the stock example given you cant make a mistake with the 27t or your toast, with the 13.5 you can drive a bit more carelessly shall we say and you can make up for your mistakes because you have power (torque) to get you out of trouble.
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:07 AM   #13
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If I had to run a class that was still using NIHM batteries, I would opt for brushless because of efficiency. More volts at the end of the race should mean better lap times.
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad View Post
With the stock example given you cant make a mistake with the 27t or your toast, with the 13.5 you can drive a bit more carelessly shall we say and you can make up for your mistakes because you have power (torque) to get you out of trouble.
But 27T is comparable to 17.5, and not 13.5. 13.5 is more like a 19T IMO. At our local track, we run 27T & 17.5T together. They are all very competitve and anybody can go home with the trophy. Some days the brushed guys are faster. Most days it's brushless (cause most run brushless). I still run brushed simply cause I have several plus a lathe & bag of brushes...
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Old 08-06-2009, 07:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
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But 27T is comparable to 17.5, and not 13.5. 13.5 is more like a 19T IMO. At our local track, we run 27T & 17.5T together. They are all very competitve and anybody can go home with the trophy. Some days the brushed guys are faster. Most days it's brushless (cause most run brushless). I still run brushed simply cause I have several plus a lathe & bag of brushes...
This is the first year our club has allowed 17.5BL in our stock class, and at the beginning of the year, the brushed motors were winning all the races.
Now acouple of months later, and things have changed. The guys with the BL setups have figured them out, and the 27T motor setups are 2 laps down. The BL cars have about the same in field speed/acceleration, but on the straight they are WAY faster.

Same thing for Pan car (19T and 10.5BL) last year the 19T were faster. But not anymore. My 10.5 has more torque AND RPMS's over the 19T.

Nice thing about BL is you can spend more of your time working on chassis setup, and not motor maintenance.

Shawn.
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