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Old 07-20-2009, 08:57 AM   #76
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BOY I REALLY LOVE VTA MORE AND MORE EVRYDAY!

the state of on-road to me as I read this thread , as a newbie to on-road is the amount of confusion...alot of good points are made too...but it seems that on-road guys paid or not seem to have very different views on a LOT of subjects.....why not have ROAR just make the rules for the classes, cars, and sponsored and independent drivers....that way you have a NATIONAL posted set of rules so nobody is surprised....also they should have ppl voting to give the average "JOE" a voice...and not just look after the manufactors best intrest...

example...we had Beat The Heat/Xray Challenge the 11th and 12th..and the 13.5 class was ran by pros and joes...but the pros where only there so the joes could test themselves...they didnt take anything away from the average racer(trophy or standing)....now if 10 pros would have been there they would have ran mod and left 13.5 for the indy guys...thats what should happen...

at all the big races all over the country, you telling me you cant get 10 pro drivers to run mod?...

this is just a opinion of a very happy on-road racer...and if all else fails...give up all the stock,ss,mod tc classes and join the USVTA!
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:00 AM   #77
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I personally like racing the "fast guys" in the "slow" classes. Im not ready for mod and I'm not going to get any better if all the fast guys locally all join a mod class. Are we trying to make the hobby better at a national level by sacrificing the local racing? For me this hobby is about improving, not necessarily winning. That is what keeps me interested.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:11 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
I personally like racing the "fast guys" in the "slow" classes. Im not ready for mod and I'm not going to get any better if all the fast guys locally all join a mod class. Are we trying to make the hobby better at a national level by sacrificing the local racing? For me this hobby is about improving, not necessarily winning. That is what keeps me interested.
Yes I like to race the fast guys on the slower 13.5 and 17.5 classes. I'm racing at speeds that I can handle but still get to run with some of the best guys around. Also with them running the classes I like the fast guys are also more familiar with the equipment I use and can help more than if they never ran a 13.5 or 17.5 motor. With them running the same stuff as me I can get more help than ever before because even the fast guys will gain more knowledge and all the fast guys I know are willing to help anyone. Just ask them and they always try to help out.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:21 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by chicky03 View Post
We are talking about modified here so all of the guys who are supposed to be moving up to don't pay for their stuff anyway. In that case getting new speedos, batteries, etc is really not a problem. Remember this is for ONLY mod. For the Spec classes, leave it like it is and you don't have to buy anything. Then we have a competitive class for normal guys by moving out the experts and a driveable, sane speed, competitive class for mod.

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In respect to Mod Touring car only ...

Rob .. Easy man easy... I just said this was my opinion. I do not care what the solution is as long as we get people back racing. I honestly think this might be the better solution though. there is no need to buy new electronics when you can buy a receiver pack and call it a day. The cars will be lighter and wear less tires and will be easier on the equipment. The speeds will be much slower and hopefully we will be able to have the great racing like we had in the past. Again this is my opinion from all my years of racing and i feel like this is the best answer right now. I could be 100% wrong , But i feel like if we do not do something soon TC foam and maybe even Rubber will be gone for good. I honestly think you will see huge increases in 12th scale and WGT this year due to the single cell and lighter cars. Why not give it a try in TC too....


Mike
Yeah in respect to mod touring everything that I have said was regarding mod touring or combining super stock into mod. Do you guys think that only the pros want to run in the Mod class??? Only the pros run it now because itís too fast and too hard to drive and really there is only 1 pro in the US that can do hat....everyone else is just an also ran....itís a shame really it is. Honestly Mike or Paul....when was the last time either of you had anything for Paulie at a race in the last year??? With the way things are going you guys that are getting paid shouldnít even be getting paid if you canít compete with him and he continues to win the way heís done....all you guys are doing is hoping he breaks his car to have a shot.....that doesnít sound like fun but youíre getting your paycheck so who cares. Really it doesnít matter to you guys you will still be getting paid. If you start to make mod ever more exclusive then it is the class is going to die faster than the slow death itís in now. If you slow the cars down and make it reasonable to buy or use the current equipment then maybe just maybe more people will be racing the mod class again. Just remember that there are more people than just you pros that would like to run this class and they might want to see some changes too. When anyone is looking at changing any rules or a class they should look at how it effects the little guy Vs the pro because he doesnít have any burden on him his sponsors will pick up the bill so they can always afford the changes. What happens if IFMAR decides to make Mod TC lipo with a 6.5 limit?


Talking about WGT and 12th scaleÖ..with 1 cell lipo now catching on are you not seeing new cars and chassis laid out just for the use of these cells???? How will TC not be any different???? And if you want to keep Stock and or Super stock the same as they are now and change Mod TC to 1 cell lipo and not have specialized cars for this class??? Just think about what has transpired in the 12th and WGT cars....it will happen to TC the same way. And really if the 12th and WGT change to 1 cell was soo great why does it look like the number for the IIC in these two classes are lower than they were at some of the winter races last year with 4 cells?
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:33 AM   #80
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I wonder why you are attacking me for my opinion. I do not think i need to justify what i have done to earn what i get to you. I am not 100% sure why you are doing this. But now i understand why i do not want to even say anything on here because it always turns into a personal attack. Sorry i gave my opinion. I am out......

Mike

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Yeah in respect to mod touring everything that I have said was regarding mod touring or combining super stock into mod. Do you guys think that only the pros want to run in the Mod class??? Only the pros run it now because itís too fast and too hard to drive and really there is only 1 pro in the US that can do hat....everyone else is just an also ran....itís a shame really it is. Honestly Mike or Paul....when was the last time either of you had anything for Paulie at a race in the last year??? With the way things are going you guys that are getting paid shouldnít even be getting paid if you canít compete with him and he continues to win the way heís done....all you guys are doing is hoping he breaks his car to have a shot.....that doesnít sound like fun but youíre getting your paycheck so who cares. Really it doesnít matter to you guys you will still be getting paid. If you start to make mod ever more exclusive then it is the class is going to die faster than the slow death itís in now. If you slow the cars down and make it reasonable to buy or use the current equipment then maybe just maybe more people will be racing the mod class again. Just remember that there are more people than just you pros that would like to run this class and they might want to see some changes too. When anyone is looking at changing any rules or a class they should look at how it effects the little guy Vs the pro because he doesnít have any burden on him his sponsors will pick up the bill so they can always afford the changes. What happens if IFMAR decides to make Mod TC lipo with a 6.5 limit?


Talking about WGT and 12th scaleÖ..with 1 cell lipo now catching on are you not seeing new cars and chassis laid out just for the use of these cells???? How will TC not be any different???? And if you want to keep Stock and or Super stock the same as they are now and change Mod TC to 1 cell lipo and not have specialized cars for this class??? Just think about what has transpired in the 12th and WGT cars....it will happen to TC the same way. And really if the 12th and WGT change to 1 cell was soo great why does it look like the number for the IIC in these two classes are lower than they were at some of the winter races last year with 4 cells?
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:35 AM   #81
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Yeah in respect to mod touring everything that I have said was regarding mod touring or combining super stock into mod. Do you guys think that only the pros want to run in the Mod class??? Only the pros run it now because it’s too fast and too hard to drive and really there is only 1 pro in the US that can do hat....everyone else is just an also ran....it’s a shame really it is. Honestly Mike or Paul....when was the last time either of you had anything for Paulie at a race in the last year??? With the way things are going you guys that are getting paid shouldn’t even be getting paid if you can’t compete with him and he continues to win the way he’s done....all you guys are doing is hoping he breaks his car to have a shot.....that doesn’t sound like fun but you’re getting your paycheck so who cares. Really it doesn’t matter to you guys you will still be getting paid. If you start to make mod ever more exclusive then it is the class is going to die faster than the slow death it’s in now. If you slow the cars down and make it reasonable to buy or use the current equipment then maybe just maybe more people will be racing the mod class again. Just remember that there are more people than just you pros that would like to run this class and they might want to see some changes too. When anyone is looking at changing any rules or a class they should look at how it effects the little guy Vs the pro because he doesn’t have any burden on him his sponsors will pick up the bill so they can always afford the changes. What happens if IFMAR decides to make Mod TC lipo with a 6.5 limit?


Talking about WGT and 12th scale…..with 1 cell lipo now catching on are you not seeing new cars and chassis laid out just for the use of these cells???? How will TC not be any different???? And if you want to keep Stock and or Super stock the same as they are now and change Mod TC to 1 cell lipo and not have specialized cars for this class??? Just think about what has transpired in the 12th and WGT cars....it will happen to TC the same way. And really if the 12th and WGT change to 1 cell was soo great why does it look like the number for the IIC in these two classes are lower than they were at some of the winter races last year with 4 cells?
Kevin honestly, you're an idiot. You could not hack it in foam, then you could not hack it in rubber, now you're running VTA and Brad is still lapping you. Paul is great in mod foam and TC in general we all know that, but if he were super man I think he would not have gotten lapped multiple times by me or Blackstock in mod 1/12. We all have our own speciality and so does Paul. You on the other hand isn't that is why you drop down until you can be competitive but now there is not another class for you to race that is slower, now what do you do?

I don't get a pay check to race. I get a pay check to work at Parma and develop products to them. I don't have to race but I choose to because I like it.

Single cell lipo is what were are talking about here. The point is to make the class so others can move into it with out being scared of the speed and cost of tearing up tires and car parts.

Paul
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:52 AM   #82
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Where have the guys gone that use to run in the Mod class? Tosolini, Baker, Francis, Kinwald, Hodge, ect? I attended my first ROAR on road nats in Portland about 5 years ago. Hara, Baker, Cavaleri, Skidmore, Wynn, Easton, Paul, Burch, Cyril ect were all there. The Bq was Kinwald. The top two mains were stacked with Pro type drivers. It was a great event. As a stock/19t guy I loved seeing the pros run and getting info from them. Those names are no where to be found anymore in on road. Why? I understand some were paid and are no longer but have they all quit racing 10th Sedan?
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:00 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Mike Blackstock View Post
I wonder why you are attacking me for my opinion. I do not think i need to justify what i have done to earn what i get to you. I am not 100% sure why you are doing this. But now i understand why i do not want to even say anything on here because it always turns into a personal attack. Sorry i gave my opinion. I am out......

Mike
I wasnt attacking you I was talking about how out of control the class has gotten and its not even fun to watch anymore.....it cant be fun for you to race it that way. The change has to come if its 1 cell fine but its going to come at a cost that you are not going to see or probably dont care to see.....if a higher turn motor limit is the fix then fine it would be an easier and cheaper fix. Again sorry you took what I said as an attack that wasnt what I was trying to do.

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Kevin honestly, you're and idiot. You could not hack it in foam, then you could not hack it in rubber, now you're running VTA and Brad is still lapping you. Paul is great in mod foam and TC in general we all know that, but if he were super man I think he would not have gotten lapped multiple times by me or Blackstock in mod 1/12. We all have our own speciality and so does Paul. You on the other hand don't that is why you drop down until you can be competitive but now there is not another class for you to race that is slower, now what do you do?

I don't get a pay check to race. I get a pay check to work at Parma and develop products to them. I don't have to race but I choose to because I like it.

Single cell lipo is what were are talking about here. The point is to make the class so others can move into it with out being scared of the speed and cost of tearing up tires and car parts.

Paul
If you took what I said as an attack on you like I said to Mike that wasn’t my goal. I have no reason to attack you I guess I didn’t convey my thoughts clearly enough to get out the point I was trying to make. I apologize for that it wasn’t meant as an attack on you.

You right Paul I’m an idiot I’m on the internet in an argument over Rc cars....yep I’m an idiot. I’m in this to have fun in a hobby that I have enjoyed for a long time. Can’t hack it sure I never had dreams of being able to beat Mike Blackstock, Joel Johnson, or Brian Kinwald when I first got into racing I did it because it was fun and I have made a lot of friends doing it. For what its worth......I stopped racing foam because it wasn’t fun. I stopped racing rubber tires because it wasn’t fun. I’m now racing VTA because it’s fun…and I still get beat at it...Im not looking for a slower class to cater to my abilities I know Im not the greatest driver ever. I don’t have a complex that I have to beat everyone at everything I do I just want to have fun. I have raced mod in the past because it was fun.....I don’t race it anymore because it isn’t fun. If there is a way to make it more enjoyable I will do it again.


Really we all want the same thing….slower cars so its more enjoyable and gets more people out doing it. Where we differ is on the way to get there. I think 1 cell lipo will lead to increased cost associated with this change and its not a wise way to go when a simple motor change would be easier and cheaper. Either way a change needs to take place.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:02 AM   #84
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If anyone is interested in a professional opinion on this topic, please pm me.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:33 AM   #85
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Really we all want the same thingÖ.slower cars so its more enjoyable and gets more people out doing it. Where we differ is on the way to get there. I think 1 cell lipo will lead to increased cost associated with this change and its not a wise way to go when a simple motor change would be easier and cheaper. Either way a change needs to take place.
1 cell Lipo is the only way that you're going to reduce speeds and increase competitive racing. The LRP SPX Stock Spec and the Tekin RS with their boost functions have made stock classes somewhat of an equipment game. Seems to me that if we raise the turn limit in Mod all we're doing is making another "Stock" class, which then it would start to come down to equipment at the top level.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:47 AM   #86
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I wasnt attacking you I was talking about how out of control the class has gotten and its not even fun to watch anymore.....it cant be fun for you to race it that way. The change has to come if its 1 cell fine but its going to come at a cost that you are not going to see or probably dont care to see.....if a higher turn motor limit is the fix then fine it would be an easier and cheaper fix. Again sorry you took what I said as an attack that wasnt what I was trying to do.



If you took what I said as an attack on you like I said to Mike that wasn’t my goal. I have no reason to attack you I guess I didn’t convey my thoughts clearly enough to get out the point I was trying to make. I apologize for that it wasn’t meant as an attack on you.

You right Paul I’m an idiot I’m on the internet in an argument over Rc cars....yep I’m an idiot. I’m in this to have fun in a hobby that I have enjoyed for a long time. Can’t hack it sure I never had dreams of being able to beat Mike Blackstock, Joel Johnson, or Brian Kinwald when I first got into racing I did it because it was fun and I have made a lot of friends doing it. For what its worth......I stopped racing foam because it wasn’t fun. I stopped racing rubber tires because it wasn’t fun. I’m now racing VTA because it’s fun…and I still get beat at it...Im not looking for a slower class to cater to my abilities I know Im not the greatest driver ever. I don’t have a complex that I have to beat everyone at everything I do I just want to have fun. I have raced mod in the past because it was fun.....I don’t race it anymore because it isn’t fun. If there is a way to make it more enjoyable I will do it again.


Really we all want the same thing….slower cars so its more enjoyable and gets more people out doing it. Where we differ is on the way to get there. I think 1 cell lipo will lead to increased cost associated with this change and its not a wise way to go when a simple motor change would be easier and cheaper. Either way a change needs to take place.
Thanks for clearing that up Kevin. Sorry for the personal attack on you but you could see why I got To me going fast and being out of control is what is fun for me, I want to get better and someday challenge Paul. I dont want to go slow, the best guys should race the fastest cars, right now there is only one guy that has it figured out. For the overall racing scene slowing the cars down is what will make racing better so I am going along with it. You are right we both agree on that but what is the best way?

Paul
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:00 AM   #87
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So how do we get all these mod drivers back in the stock class? Let's have just one big class and let the best drivers win but at the same time have it slow enough that people just entering the hobby can control the car. I hate looking at setup sheets for top drivers that I can't use or learn from b/c they are all based on them running a mod motor.

I often see the argument against stock being that "equipment matters" but when I look at the result for big races the equipment seems to vary the same, if not more, for the A main guys in Stock vs Mod.

I'm starting the "Get Pro Drivers back in Stock" movement.
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:01 AM   #88
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Thanks for clearing that up Kevin. Sorry for the personal attack on you but you could see why I got To me going fast and being out of control is what is fun for me, I want to get better and someday challenge Paul. I dont want to go slow, the best guys should race the fastest cars, right now there is only one guy that has it figured out. For the overall racing scene slowing the cars down is what will make racing better so I am going along with it. You are right we both agree on that but what is the best way?

Paul
Itís ok I will just kick you in the nuts next time I see you....

Honestly I wasnít trying to diminish your skills or Mike's skills by what I said. I was just trying to make the point that itís out of control and something needs to be done in sedan. I agree going fast is fun....but to me racing with someone and not being worried that if we touch our cars will end up in 1000 pieces is even more fun to me....and slower cars brings back RACING. I donít know what the answer is but I can see that if Sedan goes 1 cell lipo then the cost for the average person to race the class will go up with specialized electronics....and Chassis components. A limit on the motor might be quickest and cheapest way to try it.
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:14 AM   #89
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Unfortunately for the hard-core mod drivers, leaving things the way they are and just telling racers to "man up" isn't going to work.

If you want the mod class to grow, you have to make it accessible to slightly above-average skilled racer (just as it was up until 5-8 yrs ago). Otherwise, you'll be racing the same 8 people at every National event.

The burden is on the mod drivers to accept changes that will appeal to the masses. You do NOT force the masses to succomb to the desires of a gifted few.

There is no way you'll be able to force anyone to move up in class. If they want to sit back and sandbag, then that's their choice. If you try forcing the issue, they'll just go race something else where they can be free to run what they like.
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:30 AM   #90
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Here's another nice comparison, electric to nitro:

The rules for electric racing were developed in the late 70s based on the technology available at the time. Modified then meant a 21 turn motor with bearings vs a 27 turn bushing stock motor. 8 minute race length, based on the battery technology of the day.

Nitro racing has had the same engine displacement, and the same fuel tank capacity since that time.

In electric, there's basically no "engine displacement" restriction (i.e. motor turns), and the "tank capacity" has quadrupled.

Image how fast a 1/8 nitro onroad car would go if you made the tanks 4X larger, and gave you the freedom to run any size engine you like?

This is the problem facing electric racing. Every other form of racing at their top level, including our own nitro classes, has a restriction on engine size. Why are we still clinging to a 30 yr old rule set?
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