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Old 07-21-2009, 04:45 AM   #136
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I am very interested by this thread, some may find it sterile or unproductive but I like having different opinions/perspectives.

Here in Geneva ( hometown of Orion) the winter season on carpet ( no permanent track, only sportshalls with carpet laid down the night before the race) attracts quite a good amount of people, from further away than the national races, very often ! (from 70 to 90 drivers.)

Since it has been successful for us, I'll share our rules with you:

the rules are the same for all 3 classes exc for motors, that's the only difference.

tires : Orion 35 tires, handout, mounted, hard compound, low wear
batts : nimh from any brand or lipo, Orion brand only, any model from 2400 to 5000.

motor :

class 3 , beginner class: Orion 23 turn, handout, forbidden to cut the comm during the race si you have to be gente with the FDR

class 2 : orion 23 OR orion 13.5 BL, both handout and you still cannot cut the comm during the day so most choose the BL because of that.

class 1: expert class, orion 10.5 handout. The level of competition is really, really good, believe me, we have for instance several national champions, and JM "Lord" Betticher, several times world A finalist...

nobody has ever complained about the rules, in fact everybody loves them and nobody seems to think that 10.5 is too slow. Speed does not matter that much as long as competition is close and clean !

Dynamic timing speedos are not a problem yet, tekin is non-existent here ( that's a shame) and the SPX arrived late last winter so no problem...yet.

I would like to stress that choosing Brushed motors for the novice class allows them to start DIRT CHEAP with used equipment and no dynamic timing problem... 21.5 is a bit too early, I think.

Also, our championship rules are the following: 7 race days, the 5 best count.

And you can purchase the entry fee for all 7 days at the beginning of winter with a BIG price reduction , thanks to Orion's sponsorship:

entry fee for each individual race is 20 swissfranc.

and if you pay for the whole winter you pay 200 swissfranc, with a BL motor and a set of tires included. The races alone would have cost 140 so that's 4 wheels and a BL motor for 60.

For class 3 the winter fee is even less, like 170, I think.

So having one brand in a state of monopoly is not that bad at all ! no "motor of the week" / "batt of the month" stupid war.

Next winter event the tire additive will be HANDOUT ! yes, I wrote that.
you guessed it... it will be Orion purple.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:17 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Only the racer should decide which class he runs ....

Just like now....

If your not ready for the expert class just race in the class your most comfortable with...

The faster drivers will always rise to the top making room for new racers in the less advance class`s so those racers can have fun too....

This is the real problem , not money, economy or the cost of the kits...
the problem is you contradick your self in your own post.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:20 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter View Post
There were a bunch of suggestions at the time, but when we received initial feedback that it would not be considered, we kind of shelved it.

My opinion has changed a little bit since we initially discussed it.

I believe the Pro class should be a true PRO class. The racers get paid to race it, and YOU need to earn a Pro "license" < at least for Nats type of racing.

13.5 for Expert non-paid racing

17.5 or something slower for Sportsman... no Chassis/Motor Sponsors in this class.


For my grand plan, we need a points ranking system, and top 10 in Sportsman can move up to Expert, Top 10 Experts in the nation can move up to Pro and get paid... or something like that... Notice... they CAN move up, they are not required.

Broad strokes here... It can be done, but need everyone ( large promoters and ROAR ) to get on the same page. Maybe ROAR can have an EXCOMM at the site of the Birds so it is easy for everyone to get together at once...

That is one of the issues.. We still need to address the atmosphere, costs , blah ,blah blah....
thank you, now for the rub, sportman, no motor/chassis sponsors, what about the guy that works at a hobby store and gets a bigger discount/sponsorship then 90% of the sponsored guys?
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:17 AM   #139
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The biggest problems seems to be with mod on small carpet tracks, especially those like we run on in the US. Maybe we need our own version of "mod" here, but be careful to acknowledge that even within on-road, there are many different varieties of track and styles that may still benefit from open mod, or at least might need a faster spec mod.

So with that said...

Why are we trying to drag people out of the most successful classes (spec racing) into those that are all but gone (open racing)? Is there even enough of us left to try and split things up?
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:41 AM   #140
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Right, thats why I specified Motor/Chassis .. should keep that local thing goin... and I understsnd how hard it is to police... but then again... we can come up with something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
thank you, now for the rub, sportman, no motor/chassis sponsors, what about the guy that works at a hobby store and gets a bigger discount/sponsorship then 90% of the sponsored guys?
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:55 AM   #141
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Tim , I use to believe a ranking system would help , however Roar & our local racing community's are not organize for such a task...

No way it can happen unless the regional director program is overhaul and improved ...

Not against a ranking , just that I feel the Sedan community needs help now !
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Old 07-21-2009, 10:29 AM   #142
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then actually buy a sedan and come grace us with all your wisdom, when was the last time you ran sedan, one time when SIR first opened, or was it 2005 at the sizzler with a borrowed car.

if you had a car, and raced the local on road program you would know about the record turn outs.
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:12 PM   #143
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Cherry = ignore feature. Life becomes so much easier after that.
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:19 AM   #144
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Your sure not worth it.
That's for sure ....
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Last edited by Wild Cherry; 07-22-2009 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:25 PM   #145
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So I am just going to post my .02$ on this topic. (1/12th classes)

Some background on where I am coming from:
I am one of those guys who isn't the fastest, but have been addicted to 1/12th for the last almost 6 years. I used to race Nitro sedan in the summers and then started running 1/12th in the winters since I didn't want to get involved in the massive equipment race that was electric touring cars.

While most people I know went sedan since that was the new hotness... I stuck with 1/12th.

Fast forward to last year.

I got back into R/C after a little hiatus because my local track converted from offroad to carpet onroad, and I unpacked my PRC Quad 12 1/12th chassis and went racing 17.5/4 cell. I made the investment to get NiMH cells and the gear for that... but I wasn't happy doing it knowing NiMH is short for this world. 17.5 /4cell was also too slow to interest many of the fast guys.

I am done with NiMH as is most people and that killed our class turnout. None of the fast guys or even any of the slow guys wanted to make the investment in NiMH gear to run. So for the winter we had a small class.

This spring those of us who were racing, met with those who want to race 1/12th if it goes LiPo. There was one faction who wanted no class or rules "Run Whatcha Brung" Which is a pretty lazy way to run a class I think and quickly would have removed the new blood from the field as folks were looking to run 8.5 turn 4 cell (the fast guys obviously). Most people wanted an established spec that would have some compatibility with other legacy hardware setups to ensure people can get into the class and slowly if needed buy the new gear over time.

After lots of testing we determined that 10.5/LiPo was the best bang for the buck, and had speeds comparable to a 13.5/4Cell (but handled better), and a 19T/4Cell (only way more consistent). The 13.5/4cell is faster in a straight line, but at a weight of almost 150+gm heavier had a much harder time in the corners. The benefits of this spec we found were:
  • It gives a fixed spec for people to invest in for the coming season. Which is very important if you want to get more people into the sport and elminate drama with what the "hot" gear is or what people want to run today.
  • Speeds are conservative enough for people to get into the sport, and yet fast enough to keep some of the sr drivers entertained and interested in racing. There is no rule that you need to run the top spec... so if you want to run slower, then so be it.
  • The light weight of the cars reduced tire damage, tire wear, and parts breakage from wall taps. They also with a properly setup car allowed them to transition easier and more precise.
  • Setups for the car are a bit more consistent race to race now and over the run of a full race since tires dont degrade as fast and hits dont tweak the car as much.
  • Full spec brushless systems could be bought to this spec for under $160.00 (Havok+10.5SS motor) - and now the new 1S Havok and a 10.5 Ballistic motor could be quite a nice setup for only about $180.

Your mileage will vary on those, but thats what we found. This let us keep focused on one 1/12th class to consolidate as many racers as we can into this still niche class.

And to respond to a post a page ago - yes 1/12th is cheaper, and easier to get setup than Sedan. As always R/C can be as expensive as you want, but you dont NEED to invest $500+ on a chassis just to be competitive, you can race fast with a 10 year old chassis these days and it will be lighter than most current gen rigs. The fastest guy at our track runs a 12L4 (it may even be a 12L3) with some simple CRC bits, and some foams from a few years ago.. and rocks it.

Ok thats just my bit on this. Its something I have worked hard on with my local track and club to ensure that we can get interest in 1/12th again as Sedan racing is becoming too expensive for many who want to still have the speeds and not go to RCGT or VTA.

You can see our full track specs in the link in my sig.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:21 PM   #146
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I'm going to take a big step back and say that what on-road needs is to become much more accessible to the casual rc car owner. That means that it needs to be cheaper, the cars needs to run well on your local parking lot, and there needs to be cheap products/solutions to quickly setting up a track to practice in or race against friends.

A big reason why off-road is more popular is that I can grab pretty cheap kits/RTRs and then walk outside my house and have lots of fun bashing over all sorts of crazy terrain. I can stick some flags in the ground and I have a track that I can practice in or have casual races. The flags stay put and don't knock over or break my car.

With on-road, the cars cost more and often they require a groomed track to really enjoy them, which often means driving a considerable distance. Touring cars are more complicated and expensive. Pan cars are still on the expensive side, really want a smooth groomed surface, and often don't support the 6 cell/2s lipo packs and electronics that a lot of their potential customers already own.

On-road needs their Traxxas Slash. Something really cool, really cheap (cheaper than a slash), not some carpet queen, simple, but still with acceptable speed and excellent handling. Honestly, its probably too tall of an order. The thing that comes to mind is a cheap 2WD car with some decent clearance that looks like trans am or vintage trans am.

Then again, perhaps the car itself isn't that big of an issue. There are RTRs out there that come close to being that accessible doorway to on-road. TC4 comes to mind.

Personally, I don't think you're fully enjoying on-road if you aren't driving a track, so I think its key that on-road has some sort of do-it-yourself track solution. In other words, like off-road, you need to be able to step out your door and have fun. The track needs to be something that doesn't break your car and something that stays put if you hit it or drive over it. Sure, there are some homemade solutions, but it'd be nice if something like that even shipped with the cheap kit. Maybe there's something out there that I'm not aware of?

Personally, I think on-road is a blast. I just wish it had half the support you see in off-road. Somehow, it has to appeal more to a more casual audience.
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