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Old 07-02-2009, 02:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Cpt.America View Post
Id have to completely dissagree.

I race at a fun track in WA, and we have TC racers of all levels. Beginners, good drives, very good drivers, and even professional level drivers. Ill give you an example of Driver > car.

Jose is one of our regulars that helps run the track and he does very well, id call him a pretty good driver, and drives a run-of-the-mill TC5. Nothing all that special about his car...

Now, in steps "peeler". This guy is just awesome.. a sponsored guy that I THINK drives for Xray/hudy? Who knows... all I know is the guy is a bullet. Anyway, one race he decides he is going to drive Jose's car in 17.5 instead of his own (i don't know why).... but that car went from behing a typical speed 17.5 car, to the car turning the fastest laps at the track. Somebody correct me if im wrong, but he was turning as good of laptimes as some of our mod drivers! It was amazing to watch.

My point is... that car was blazingly fast 100% due to the skill of the driver. Now... granted the car has to be setup decently well. For example, you can't take a wheel off and still go around the track. The car was setup "just fine", but it didn't have anything extra on it that you or I wouldn't have... know what I mean? There are a few guys like that at my track. It's great to watch!

FWR in the house!

Cpt.
Understood. I think we all agree. Driver>car/equipment any day of the week. It has been proven over and over again.

But for normal mortal people like me, I don't think I will ever get to that level of driving. At least not anytime soon. So I wan't to squeeze every tenth out of my car. Also, knowing my equipement is the best it can possibly be, keeps my mind off the setup and more on the driving. It gives me one less thing to worry about on the track.

I can't remember whos sig says it, but it goes something like this.

"Your 10 years of experience might get you in first place, but my motor will get me in second."

And racenut, I think you are going to regret that. You just made yourself a new friend.

--pakk
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:03 PM   #32
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But for normal mortal people like me, I don't think I will ever get to that level of driving. At least not anytime soon. So I wan't to squeeze every tenth out of my car. Also, knowing my equipement is the best it can possibly be, keeps my mind off the setup and more on the driving. It gives me one less thing to worry about on the track.
--pakk
I agree completely. I am by no means among the fastest guys at my track, im somewhere in the middle of the pack. I usually qualify towards the bottom of the A main. And while I am certainly not a bullet around the track, I DO do everything that I can with my car to make sure that it, and it's electronics, aren't holding me back. The last thing you want to do is learn/improve your driving on a car that is horribly unbalanced or setup poorly. You might even be developing worse habbits trying to compensate for a car that isn't driving right.

So while my driving skill is what I need to work on MOST... that doesn't mean I don't/can't spend time with good electronics, car maintenance, etc...

But I tell you... you could give some of the guys at my track a Traxxas Slash with hockey pucks for tires, and they would beat the hell out of a lot of other drivers with perfectly setup TCs... you know who you are, fellas
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
I found that talking to someone with a similar driving style or car can help you, as they will tend to like the same things as you in car setup.

I would look at tyres first, as with the wrong tyres no setup is going to help improve what you have.

Moderation in toe and camber is all relevent too, smooth (on throttle and steering) is faster for a lot of people, but some like to drive a car that is overly responsive.

If you cant tame your fingers, tame your steering or throttle output through your transmitter settings
+ 1

If you have an agressive driving style... you will want someone with a similar driving stlyle helping you set up your car. The setups might differ between a smooth driver versus an agressive driver.

When I first started, I had someone setup my car with the basic setup... Then I told them what I felt the car wasnt doing for me... i.e not turning fast enough, needed more traction, etc. then I asked them to help me fix those issues. After that, I drove my own car and just kept practicing. Make sure that you are involved in setting up your own car whatever you do. letting someone else totally setup your car will create problems for you later,

They will set it up for their exact style of driving... and their style will most likely be a little different than yours.

And that little will make a BIG difference.
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Old 07-02-2009, 06:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by pakk View Post
I won't lie. This thread kind of went in the wrong direction, but I still find it very informative. Probably the best advice I have read so far, not to discount anything else that was said, is to see where I have problems on the track and adjust the car to make that part of the track easier. I will do that.

What I was looking for was something like this...

First I adjust my caster. I start with 4 degrees, if the car does this, I go to 2 degree blocks. If the car does this, I go to 6 degree blocks. Then I adjust camber, then I go for toe. Then I do x y and z. Something like that was what I was after.

At the track, I do ask for help and some people just offer it. Often I hear,

"Your car looks good. You could drive better and probably dial your car in a bit better."

Now I know about the driving, it is the other part I am looking for tips on.

--paKK
I agree, this thread has drifted off of what you were asking in the first place. All good advice, but the better driving advice doesn't fit. Its a given that we ALL need to improve our driving skills. If someone ever thinks that is a area they don't need to work on anymore, there going to get passed. The advice given needs to focus back to chassis fine tuning. Things like tires for instance, even if being the most important thing...sometimes can't be helped. If you are at a race and they have handout poo poo tires you are in trouble

I think you want a more detailed system of chassis adjustments from people here on how they would dial there car in at a race when they are looking to improve there setup with some of the less used adjustments. The only thing is I think you would have to be more specific on what you want to know. Maybe you could ask questions like.. "If your car is loose what would you do first?" Or "If you want more on power steering what would you change first?" With the level of sophistication in touring cars right now there are a couple of changes some people may make that give close to the same result.

I have a good base setup that works pretty much everywhere for me. So when I do feel a change is in order, the only things I usually will alter is, shock positions, droop, ride height, camber and gearing ( if you have a tekin or spx you know what I mean about gearing)
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:16 PM   #35
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I am just curious on how you guys dial your cars in. Now I do understand the basics and probably more than the basics as far as what does what when you change certain things. And, I am pretty good about making adjustments for when the rear slides out, the front pushes, gearing, etc... In other words, when there is an obvious problem, I somehow eventually make the right adjustments to correct it. But I am kinda lost on how to make a fast car faster(if that makes sense).

Is it just a trial and error thing? So should I just keep messing with different adjustments and see how the car reacts? Maybe some of you have a certain order in which and what you adjust in certain orders that you could share?

--pakk
In order of importance
1. Yourself
2. Tires
3. Suspension
4. Electrics
5. other mechanical (steering, drivetrain, etc)

actually, the last three is about a tie, but the first two is very important. If you are sure that your car is on par with the fast guys, it is all driver skill from there. Nothing can beat a good wheel no matter what class it is. Your car is important, but learn the three functions of a car. Acceleration, deceleration, and turning. And after that, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. When you get to a certain level (minimal amount of crashing and driving the right lines) then you will understand what you really need to go faster.
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Old 07-02-2009, 07:21 PM   #36
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Well, since it is related, I'll ask here. I think this is the kind of setup question he is asking about.

On my FT TC4 (VTA), I want to add just a tad more roll into the rear of the chassis, basically getting the car "dialed in" since I am happy with every other aspect of its handling.

The camber link is on the outermost mount on the chassis (shortest link possible).

Do I.......

1. Add shims underneath the inboard camber link?

OR......

2. Remove my shim from the upright's camber link?

OR......

3. Move the ballstud 1 position in to increase the camber link's length?

Perhaps this is an example of a question he wants answered? I could see where moving the ballstud inwards would be a more exaggerated setup change, but will adding shims inboard provide the same effect as removing shims from the upright?
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by cwoods34 View Post
Well, since it is related, I'll ask here. I think this is the kind of setup question he is asking about.

On my FT TC4 (VTA), I want to add just a tad more roll into the rear of the chassis, basically getting the car "dialed in" since I am happy with every other aspect of its handling.

The camber link is on the outermost mount on the chassis (shortest link possible).

Do I.......

1. Add shims underneath the inboard camber link?

OR......

2. Remove my shim from the upright's camber link?

OR......

3. Move the ballstud 1 position in to increase the camber link's length?

Perhaps this is an example of a question he wants answered? I could see where moving the ballstud inwards would be a more exaggerated setup change, but will adding shims inboard provide the same effect as removing shims from the upright?
Yeah this question is more in line with what was being asked originally...from the adjustments you posted, I would lengthen the rear links by moving the inner ballstud inward first. Then after trying it out I would remove a shim from the inboard ballstud. Adding a equal thickness shim to the inboard ballstud that you remove from the upright will give you the same effect but to a extent. If you do not have enough shim height on the upright you can limit your suspension travel because the upright will hit the ballcup. As long as I have full suspension travel without binding, I wouldn't ever mess with the upright shims. Just adjust rollcenter with the inner ballcup shims.
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Last edited by Timmie; 07-02-2009 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 07-03-2009, 12:15 AM   #38
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Pakk,

I no longer drive an Xray, but I did for awhile. Anyway if you go to their website and look in the download section, they have a chart that shows a list of what order you should change items. Of course they also have their setup book which shows some valueable info also. I think that chart with the pink, and white and black boxes is what you want.

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Old 07-03-2009, 01:14 AM   #39
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Yeah this question is more in line with what was being asked originally...from the adjustments you posted, I would lengthen the rear links by moving the inner ballstud inward first. Then after trying it out I would remove a shim from the inboard ballstud. Adding a equal thickness shim to the inboard ballstud that you remove from the upright will give you the same effect but to a extent. If you do not have enough shim height on the upright you can limit your suspension travel because the upright will hit the ballcup. As long as I have full suspension travel without binding, I wouldn't ever mess with the upright shims. Just adjust rollcenter with the inner ballcup shims.
I'd do the opposite, adjust on the upright first, as the inner link seems to be a more drastic change.
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:24 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by cwoods34 View Post
Well, since it is related, I'll ask here. I think this is the kind of setup question he is asking about.

On my FT TC4 (VTA), I want to add just a tad more roll into the rear of the chassis, basically getting the car "dialed in" since I am happy with every other aspect of its handling.

The camber link is on the outermost mount on the chassis (shortest link possible).

Do I.......

1. Add shims underneath the inboard camber link?

OR......

2. Remove my shim from the upright's camber link?

OR......

3. Move the ballstud 1 position in to increase the camber link's length?

Perhaps this is an example of a question he wants answered? I could see where moving the ballstud inwards would be a more exaggerated setup change, but will adding shims inboard provide the same effect as removing shims from the upright?
Move the rear shock in one hole on the tower or lower the rear hinge pin mounts like .5mm if you want the car to roll more (throughout the turn) or raise it if you want it roll faster (take it's set quicker-this may seem like more)
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