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Old 01-11-2004, 03:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdrianM
Most guy that want to run on foams are pretty new to the hobby and have never had the miserable experiece of running foams on asphalt.

I quit racing when i went to college. When I was done i didnt want to start up again untill I found sedans....with rubber tires.

If we start running foams on asphalt it will be the end of sedans. It will become such a drag it will go the way of 1/10th pan cars. The leader ship of ROAR and IFMAR is aware of this fact and try to keep sedans on rubber.
In MD if you run rubber you'll come in last, it's that simple. Everybody runs foams and at the carpet track I race at, rubber isn't allowed. I've raced foams on asphult for months and it's not miserable at all. Gee you'll have to change your ride hight and droop in between heats, very easy and fast to do. TC will never become obsolete because of foams, look at nitro tc, they switched and are still going strong. Sure you can chunk foams if you try hard enough, but I've been in many crashes with foams and have come out with NO tire damage. In most cases I usually slice(with a small chunk) one tire once during a sets life and that's easily fixed with some silicon.

I ran rubber three race days, the 2nd race on the third race day my rear inserts disintergrated and and rendered the tires usless, I bought some foams for the next race and won the qualifier. Rubber sucks IMO, I will never go back unless foams are banned at the tracks I race at.
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Old 01-11-2004, 07:40 PM   #32
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Well, I've been racing for 14 years now. In my opinion foam is the ONLY way to go if the track allows it. Anybody who says they can outrun foam needs to show up at the track and prove it.

With the exception of very dusty tracks, foams will always be faster. I am not sure of the scientific reason, just that they generate more grip than rubber. They also weigh significanlty less than rubber. The lighter weight will help with acceleration and minimize unsprung weight.

There is also much more usable life in a foam tire as compared to rubber. If you go to any of the big races that require rubber, each set of tires is usually run only one time. After that first run, the performance of rubber starts to decline. With foams, the performance stays very consistent through the entire life of the tire. Foams do begin to handle better as they wear due to the shorter sidewall height which reduces rollover.

Adjusting ride height and droop for tire wear is not too difficult. It takes a few minutes, but that is just part of the race day maintenance. One way to minimize this is to purchase several sets of tires and only run them once or twice per race day. Start the day with all of them at the same size. This will eliminate the need to make adjustments during the day. Then during the week, true the tires (if necessary) and readjust your car for the new height. It makes tire purchasing time a little pricey, but it doesn't come as often. Your overall tire bill will be the same for the race season.

If your car is handling well, you can easily get 15 to 20 runs on a set of foams.
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Old 01-11-2004, 11:00 PM   #33
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Default foam v rubber

If you can tell the difference in aceleration between a car using foams or rubber then your a bloody good driver and should be racing in all the pro events. Get off the grass mate your dreaming if you think this is a factor in the choice.
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Old 01-11-2004, 11:10 PM   #34
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Read what he wrote again, he never said that he could feel the difference, so his statment is 100% correct. Even more so to add onto this, if you cut foams down to 57mm(or around that) for carpet as alot do at my local carpet track, they WILL be alot lighter.
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Old 01-12-2004, 06:28 AM   #35
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Rubbers are good for one thing and it isn't for car tires...



I've noticed that racers I've talked too out west tend to run on rubbers...East coast uses foams.

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Old 01-12-2004, 06:43 AM   #36
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I don't know if you could feel the difference in acceleration or not, but I am positive that you will see it in the lap times. If you race in the stock classes, the difference can be dramatic. With the limited horsepower available, any reduction in rotating mass can make significant improvements in acceleration. This is one reason why many TC3 drivers swapped out the aluminum dog bones for the composite ones.

Carpet tracks tend to be small with intricate corners. In this situation, the lower rotating mass will be very important. On asphalt tracks that are larger and more flowing, it may not make as large of a difference, but it will be there.

I will stand behind what I have said 100%. I have never seen a touring car on rubber tires run faster lap times than foam.
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Old 01-12-2004, 06:46 AM   #37
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I remember last year or maybe the year before watching Mo Denton and Rob Love (both Stock A-Mainers at Cleveland) run rubbers instead of foams. Their laptimes were slower than they had been previous weeks.
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Old 01-12-2004, 08:34 AM   #38
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No doubt rubber are slower. I never said they were equal to foams in speed or acceleration. You shouls never run mixed classes as the rubber guy (assuming the foam guys know what they are doing) will always be slower.

At the Snowbirds last year I saw alot more guys chunk tires to the level they are unusable than guy broke rims at the On Road Nationals on Rubber.

My beef is with foam on asphalt. Foam is ok on carpet.

gotpez - 15-20 runs...maybe at a club race or a low bite track but not on any track with real traction or a major event. At the Novak race this weekend Cyrul and Black Stock both said you can scuff a set in and get 4 run before they get too sticky and slowdown or cause traction rolling. Lemieux said to be fast you scuff you foams in and run them once then put them away for club races.
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Old 01-12-2004, 01:10 PM   #39
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There is a massive difference between normal club racing and national level racing.

At a national level event, drivers like Blackstock, Cyrul and others of their level usually only run a set of tires 1 or 2 times. They get tires for free and then immediately true them down to optimal race size. They may or may not scuff them in and they will race with them only 1 time. It is also likely that they will use these tires later for club racing.

The pro-level drivers have found setups that work with very specific tire diameters. For club racing they will run tire sizes other than optimal, but at a big event, where a win matters, they run what they know is good. At an event like the Snowbirds, hundredths of seconds can be the difference between winning and losing.

All of my comments were intended for club level racing. In club racing, even for sponsored racers, it is not practical to cut tires down to optimal race level for the first run. On carpet, I start my foams at about 2.36", on asphalt I start them at 2.5". I will then run them until they are pretty much unusable. On both carpet and asphalt I get between 15 and 20 runs before the tires hit the trash can. And depending on my driving, I am competetive for each of those runs.

Even though I am not a pro-level driver, I do sacrifice my tire budget at a big race. I will show up with enough sets of tires to run each set once or twice at most. I will even true them down to where I would normally start to get better performance. This will reduce the number of runs on that set of tires, but that's the price of competition.

As far as chunking goes, much of that is caused by poorly cut bodies. I have seen a lot of racers trying to keep their wheel wells tight to the tires. This just allows the sharp edges of the lexan to slice the foam in an accident. Once the structure of the tire is compromised, chunking is inevitable. Rounding the edges and cutting a little larger opening can dramatically reduce the amount of chunking.

Since I have never raced on rubber, I can not really say how long they will last for club level racing. Based only on what I have heard, their performance degrades significantly after the first run. Maybe some who have run rubber can give more specifics on their experiences.
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Old 01-12-2004, 01:30 PM   #40
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Wow. Now we're getting somewhere, and I'm getting educated. Now I can see some reasoning instead of just following blindly. Its intersting to hear aabout dusty tracks, rotating mass, etc. makes sense. I also believe the rules should seperate them. This will help in streamlining etc. Heh formula 1 onoly allows treaded tires now, to keep the speeds down for safety. It should be up to the governing body silimalr to stock, spec and modified racing to curve costs, etc.
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Old 01-12-2004, 03:00 PM   #41
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MAN. This can be a post that goes on forever! Alot of great points have been made for and against each tire. Personally, i hate foams. But i ALSO hate rubbers. Each have their own disadvantages that give reason to not want to use them. I think what really needs to be discussed is the lack of control in class leading organizations. Well, maybe not so much the lack of control, but the excess of control. Racers look for a class they can be competitive in, some like foams because they dont like the unglued feeling rubbers give on carpet, and vice versa for asphalt. But the same can be true in the reverse. Its a matter of racing conditions and surface. The real problem comes when we divide our racing into SO many different classes that we lose people that have interest in the hobby. If the leading organizations cant set rules and go strictly by them, we have a hobby that spins out of control both in technology and loss of participants. Noone wants to chase the tire of the day, noone wants to buy cells every month to stay fast. BUT this IS racing, so how do we find the medium for everyone to be happy?

I have raced at events with rubbers and foams in the same mod TC class. In particular, i remember an event in Manassas VA at Bobs Hobbies and Raceway several years ago. I got there and EVERYONE was on foams... i had three sets of Pit Schmizu 30 rubber tires. I qualified running 4th in the A, and the top 5 were freight training around the asphalt track. I was on average 1/10th slower than TQ on any given lap, on some i was faster. The bad thing was, the clouds came out by time the main came up, track temp dropped 20 degrees, and i didnt have tires to compensate. Did i cry about it? I realized that i ended up 7th in the main a lap back because I didnt have the right tire for the track condition. YES, foams were faster at that point, BUT only because i didnt have another tire for the temperature range. THAT IS RACING. I have since moved away from that area, and miss the competition greatly. I dont wish they ran different tires, i just wish i could go back and run there again! Now, when it comes to Nats and big events, dont go unless you have all intent to ask VISA for a loan, you WILL spend $$$ on tires and all the necessities. Foams? Rubbers? Whatever you run, just remember WHY you are there, to compete. I sure as heck dont go to be considered lapped traffic, but sometimes it does happen. It just sends me to the pit with all the more reason to rethink and come back next time. Pick your weapon, drive it!

There was an earlier post about the feel between foams and rubbers. There is a difference and you dont have to be pro to notice it. Rubbers are more forgiving and have a definite warning time before they let go in a corner.... they let you know before they go, and you can bring the car back more often than not. Foams on the other hand, give you grip and gobs of it, and then you are in the boards wondering what happened. There is little warning time, little reponse time for mistakes. I personally love running rubbers on carpet, and contrary to what people say, they arent just good for one round... it is just easier for some people to buy a new set than prep the tires that they use. Again, personal opinion influences this hobby so much so, that it can run it into the ground... and people never realize it. Take a look at Trinity, that is proof in itself. Practice and race, years of experience is all that can really answer these questions for you. Ask any old timer behind the handmade car that whoops yer tail at the home track.

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Old 01-12-2004, 03:38 PM   #42
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Default how long do rubbers last????

unlike other rubbers, they are not a one use disposable product.

I can get over 40 runs per set of tires and still have them be usable (I have been running the same set of sorex 36's on my nitro since August 2003-running 2-3 times a month-and I usually win---as a comparison, I went through my first set of foams in two weeks). Yes, they do lose some of their ability to grip, but how much are you really losing. It isn't the $50 per set that I did not spend to out tire the next guy. I am only able to run on outdoor asphalt tracks. We do not prep either (which is why I could not get foams to hook up-DIRT CLOGS THE PORES IN THE TIRES).

I have been through the set or two of tires a day when I was really active in off-road. Did it make me any faster-sometimes. But if I cased the jump, guess what, I just lost any time that I would have gained by spending my way to the front. I have learned with experience that you will only get faster by practicing and things like a new set of shoes are nice, but only really needed for national events where all the guys next to you on the drivers stand have nice new shirts that say Trinity, Losi, Associated, etc. If you can race at that level and be on that stand with them, then you need to go through tires like they are going out of style (cause your probably getting them for free at that point). If you cant make the A or B at a large event, and you know it, spend time on the track till you can.

I also have experience with foams on carpet. Too much maintenance and expence for my taste. Just not my bag.
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Old 01-12-2004, 06:56 PM   #43
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I agree that we have problems with dilution of classes. Rubber vs. Foam for TC is only one part of that problem.

Since none of the santioning bodies have come down with a hard and fast rule for TC, it has left us to the whims of our local racers. Some areas of the country have adopted foam as their standard, others picked rubber. Once the local standard was set, the racers learned what it took to go fast on their tires.

I doubt that ROAR or NORCCA or any other santioning body is going to step up anytime soon and make a rule. Since they let it go so long, the two camps have many devout followers and one group would be very upset if the rules did not go their way. Most racers would eventually accept the rules, but we would have problems for a while.

I know that here in the Midwest, TC didn't really take off until foams were available. The early adopters who tried rubber fought many battles trying to win converts. The first cars didn't handle as well as what we have now, and rubber tires didn't help. Many of us were 1/12th scale racers, so foam was something we were familiar with. You won't find much rubber racing going on around here.

I will debate the point with anybody, but I'm sure I won't be convincing anybody who runs rubber that foam is better. Just as I assume they know they probably won't convert me either. I never take these debates personally, I think they are fun. It's great to get all of these points out on the table so everybody can see them.

As one of our local race announcers says: "It's just a hobby, have fun racing!!"
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Old 01-13-2004, 10:52 AM   #44
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gotpez - There isn't much diffrence between a National and a club race at any of the track I have ever raced at. I have raced regularly in Arizona, California and Florida and I have friends that race in just about every state. All of their club races are ULTRA serious.

For Example at my local track everyone has better batteries than most factory drivers (I'm not kidding), they have a dozen packs each, half dozen of the motors of the week, most have 2 turbo 35's or GFX's, a few have Fantom Dynos, 4 have magnet zappers and they bring everything to the track twice a week.

Every time I have run Foam on Carpet I have had to true my tires down to 2.27 to get decent lap time with the car getting faster when the tires got to 2.24. I started at 2.27 to get some life out of them. Everyone else I raced with started at 2.24 right away.

Like I said everywhere I race the racers act like its a national and have no problem dropping tons o' cash to be fast.
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Old 01-13-2004, 12:02 PM   #45
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I recently moved and the track here is carpet. Well, I have been running on asphalt for a while now. I went to the track with my rubber tires, and in the last two months I have won the stock touring class with the same set of tires. Anything faster than a stock motor, and I lose traction badly.

Everyone here runs foams. It seems funny that when I show up with rubbers and win their series, I start to see other people running rubbers too. lol

If you can get away with it, running rubbers on carpet is way cheaper than foam. These guys are leaving chunks of foam all over the place. My tires have lasted for over two months and they had probably 4 races on them when I started here. I can notice absoltely zero wear also. With that being said, I am going to buy some foams to run the modified class for the next series. I have also purchased a 12th scale, whick also runs foams.


Question, does Paragon work on foam tires?

Thanks,

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