The reason for the lack of mod drivers...
06-17-2009, 04:35 AM
#61
Not necessarily. The track is ultimately going to dictate the fastest possible time and in our case (the club where I race) it has been demonstrated that superstock is about as fast as you can go albeit one of our best drivers occasionally beats the crap out of the superstock field (all of them running brushless) with a humble stock 27 turn brushed motor (when he cares to turn up).
This makes it superfluous to invest in mod gear just to run a class that doesn't add anything to the racing environment. Sure, you can run it, but it's pointless.
Changing the track is another problem. We run on carpet indoors and the track size is then limited. Simply put, mod has become too fast for some tracks and when you can be just as fast with motors that are not going to blow diffs up and generally speaking are going to inflict less overall wear on the car why would you run it?
i am sure in the future we will have tougher gear that will stand a lot better to the stress induced by the current levels of power available at our disposal, but we're not there yet. Hardware (transmissions mainly) technology has a little bit of catching up to do.
One case in point is the ceramic bearings which are ubiquitous these days and are becoming cheaper (albeit not necessarily better) by the month. Still, one can buy ceramic bearings and get a lot more bang (read long service too, not only speed) for their buck than with steel bearings.
This makes it superfluous to invest in mod gear just to run a class that doesn't add anything to the racing environment. Sure, you can run it, but it's pointless.
Changing the track is another problem. We run on carpet indoors and the track size is then limited. Simply put, mod has become too fast for some tracks and when you can be just as fast with motors that are not going to blow diffs up and generally speaking are going to inflict less overall wear on the car why would you run it?
i am sure in the future we will have tougher gear that will stand a lot better to the stress induced by the current levels of power available at our disposal, but we're not there yet. Hardware (transmissions mainly) technology has a little bit of catching up to do.
One case in point is the ceramic bearings which are ubiquitous these days and are becoming cheaper (albeit not necessarily better) by the month. Still, one can buy ceramic bearings and get a lot more bang (read long service too, not only speed) for their buck than with steel bearings.
06-17-2009, 05:53 AM
#63
Lets face it. The new equipment is just amazing. Faster than most humans and current chassis can handle. Maybe a class restructure is in order?
Stock
21.5
No boost timming speedos
max 25C packs
Super stock
17.5
No boost timming speedos
any pack
Mod
13.5+
any speedo
any pack
Im with most, 17.5 is just too slow so I run 13.5. If 13.5 was mod then most would be in mod.
Not too bad of an idea on the single cell. When it started to come out I thought it was the stupidest thing ever. Well I now have a single cell 1/12th and love it. Good power for 8mins, nice and light for little wear/breakage. Ya I had to put a $5 booster on there but its small and cheap so no big.
Maybe find a motor that works with a single cell in a sedan that is faster than 17.5/2cell ? But that would make it really hard to run stock and mod with the same car so probly wouldnt work. Just spit balln here.
DK
Stock
21.5
No boost timming speedos
max 25C packs
Super stock
17.5
No boost timming speedos
any pack
Mod
13.5+
any speedo
any pack
Im with most, 17.5 is just too slow so I run 13.5. If 13.5 was mod then most would be in mod.
Not too bad of an idea on the single cell. When it started to come out I thought it was the stupidest thing ever. Well I now have a single cell 1/12th and love it. Good power for 8mins, nice and light for little wear/breakage. Ya I had to put a $5 booster on there but its small and cheap so no big.
Maybe find a motor that works with a single cell in a sedan that is faster than 17.5/2cell ? But that would make it really hard to run stock and mod with the same car so probly wouldnt work. Just spit balln here.
DK
06-17-2009, 06:06 AM
#66
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
McSmooth - Nice one... Too bad I never wear a watch and don't even own one...lol... 
Johnny Wishbone has it exactly!! Mod used to be a completely different class than it is now. It was a disipline class where you used strategy, battery management and equipment work/set-up to not only be fast but effecient. Now, it's just a matter of trying to get the car set-up well enough to run a good line and hanging on for the race duration while driving full noodle around the track. If you can't drive full noodle, your a lap down.
I personally miss the cat/mouse days of mod (especially 1/12) where you could be behind with a minute to go but since you drove a conservative race you had enough to run the crap out of it and go for the win. Or run the crap out of it to get a lead and try to conserve enough for the finish. This excitement is gone from Modified. Now, you can watch the first 2-3 laps and know who is going to win and where the rest of the field will end up (baring and disaster).... There's no questions, no what if's, nothing to elevate the heart rate which equals a lack of interest.
Honestly, I had the most fun this year racing WGT with Blackstock at the ROAR Carpet Nats. In the end, Mike was a little faster up front and I was faster at the end so I had to hang on for dear life for the first 2 minutes and try to run away from there. It was about driving, strategy and knowing your strong point in the race and trying to be patient to wait for it. Now, if we could have added the possibility of dumping into that equation it would have been even better as you now have to lift earlier (rather than using brakes as we do now), run more sweeping lines to carry corner speed would generate wider passing lanes for even better racing.
Also, to get an idea of the lap times from the past:
2003 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 14.3 fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.2 second split.
TC Stock - 14.9 fastest lap
TC Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.4 second split.
2009 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 10.2 - fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 9.2 fastest lap - 1.0 second split.
TC Stock - 10.5 fastest lap
TC Mod - 9.7 fastest lap - .8 second split.
The track at this years Nats may have been smaller than the 2003 Nats but even at Cleveland we are racing on a larger track than in years past but still running 2-3 seconds a lap faster.....
Chicky e-mailed me about breaking out one of my old cars so I am going to put a speedo and reciever back in the old TC3 that I won the Snowbirds with and try to run the old tires, motors, body, etc. He's going to try and track down some batteries and we are going to throw it down after the summer to actually see where it stacks up vs. todays tech. I think it will be fun to see that 13.5 and maybe even 17.5 of today is faster than Mod was from 2003!!!
Johnny Wishbone has it exactly!! Mod used to be a completely different class than it is now. It was a disipline class where you used strategy, battery management and equipment work/set-up to not only be fast but effecient. Now, it's just a matter of trying to get the car set-up well enough to run a good line and hanging on for the race duration while driving full noodle around the track. If you can't drive full noodle, your a lap down.
I personally miss the cat/mouse days of mod (especially 1/12) where you could be behind with a minute to go but since you drove a conservative race you had enough to run the crap out of it and go for the win. Or run the crap out of it to get a lead and try to conserve enough for the finish. This excitement is gone from Modified. Now, you can watch the first 2-3 laps and know who is going to win and where the rest of the field will end up (baring and disaster).... There's no questions, no what if's, nothing to elevate the heart rate which equals a lack of interest.
Honestly, I had the most fun this year racing WGT with Blackstock at the ROAR Carpet Nats. In the end, Mike was a little faster up front and I was faster at the end so I had to hang on for dear life for the first 2 minutes and try to run away from there. It was about driving, strategy and knowing your strong point in the race and trying to be patient to wait for it. Now, if we could have added the possibility of dumping into that equation it would have been even better as you now have to lift earlier (rather than using brakes as we do now), run more sweeping lines to carry corner speed would generate wider passing lanes for even better racing.
Also, to get an idea of the lap times from the past:
2003 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 14.3 fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.2 second split.
TC Stock - 14.9 fastest lap
TC Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.4 second split.
2009 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 10.2 - fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 9.2 fastest lap - 1.0 second split.
TC Stock - 10.5 fastest lap
TC Mod - 9.7 fastest lap - .8 second split.
The track at this years Nats may have been smaller than the 2003 Nats but even at Cleveland we are racing on a larger track than in years past but still running 2-3 seconds a lap faster.....
Chicky e-mailed me about breaking out one of my old cars so I am going to put a speedo and reciever back in the old TC3 that I won the Snowbirds with and try to run the old tires, motors, body, etc. He's going to try and track down some batteries and we are going to throw it down after the summer to actually see where it stacks up vs. todays tech. I think it will be fun to see that 13.5 and maybe even 17.5 of today is faster than Mod was from 2003!!!
06-17-2009, 06:55 AM
#68
Also, to get an idea of the lap times from the past:
2003 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 14.3 fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.2 second split.
TC Stock - 14.9 fastest lap
TC Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.4 second split.
2009 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 10.2 - fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 9.2 fastest lap - 1.0 second split.
TC Stock - 10.5 fastest lap
TC Mod - 9.7 fastest lap - .8 second split.
The track at this years Nats may have been smaller than the 2003 Nats but even at Cleveland we are racing on a larger track than in years past but still running 2-3 seconds a lap faster.....
2003 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 14.3 fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.2 second split.
TC Stock - 14.9 fastest lap
TC Mod - 13.5 fastest lap - 1.4 second split.
2009 ROAR Carpet Nats:
1/12 Stock - 10.2 - fastest lap
1/12 Mod - 9.2 fastest lap - 1.0 second split.
TC Stock - 10.5 fastest lap
TC Mod - 9.7 fastest lap - .8 second split.
The track at this years Nats may have been smaller than the 2003 Nats but even at Cleveland we are racing on a larger track than in years past but still running 2-3 seconds a lap faster.....
2008 Carpet nats -Omaha (a lot closer in size to MN in 2003..)
1/12 mod
fast lap 9.450
1/12 10.5
fast lap 9.698 -.24 split
1/12 stock
fast lap 10.557 -1.1 split
tc mod
fast lap 9.356
tc 10.5
fast lap 9.811 -.46
tc stock
fast lap 10.421 -1.1 split
Omaha definitely is closer to 100 x 50, but the lap times are almost the same as a ballroom sized track...?
06-17-2009, 08:19 AM
#69
Tech Initiate
íīve never heard nitro pilots saying, they have to much power, only the guys of electric say it.
probably the question is
why the cars are so underweight they could be as 1/10 200mm everything transmissions, diff. etc.
youīll never complain about wear as you do now.
but for me the most funny part is in every motor sport we try to go faster and here on rc electric we want to be more drivable, i think this is against human natur but itīs okay.
what i saw on a track as the one on Thailand (worlds) everyone could run 4,5,6 cells but i didnīt see anyone running 5 cells why? and thatīs a pretty small track.
Perhaps they wanted to be faster and not so drivable.
i think the thought must change on electric guys to become more as nitro guys because they donīt have problems with power, they simply want more and more.
if you want to do stock just do it but donīt say mod as to be slower for that you have already a lot of stock classes,
probably the question is
why the cars are so underweight they could be as 1/10 200mm everything transmissions, diff. etc.
youīll never complain about wear as you do now.
but for me the most funny part is in every motor sport we try to go faster and here on rc electric we want to be more drivable, i think this is against human natur but itīs okay.
what i saw on a track as the one on Thailand (worlds) everyone could run 4,5,6 cells but i didnīt see anyone running 5 cells why? and thatīs a pretty small track.
Perhaps they wanted to be faster and not so drivable.
i think the thought must change on electric guys to become more as nitro guys because they donīt have problems with power, they simply want more and more.
if you want to do stock just do it but donīt say mod as to be slower for that you have already a lot of stock classes,
06-17-2009, 08:30 AM
#70
Seems to me the rules makers just throw expense to the wind and let the racers absorb the cost of switching from their 10.5 to a 13.5. And now days with the cost of a so called stock motor is $85 and not the usual $30 like the old brushed motors used to be . Its so nice to not have to have a com lathe and a stack of brushes. Please please please I hope it doesn't come down to having a lap top and a friggin' dyno. A chassis dyno might be an interesting toy 
.
Thing is we would rather race a majority of others in whatever class rather than just a handful of guys where everyone makes the "A".
Personally VTA is just about perfect for a beginner but is also popular with the more skilled drivers. Inherently those beginners may think they need to go fast (I've seen so many rookies buy a 5.5, destroy a car or just get smoked by a 13.5 and quit) Thats about the mentality of a guy is "How fast is it?"
No one wants a slow race car but then again.... I know people who've killed themselves thinking they could drive a "FAST CAR".
Foam on a touring car is just ridiculously fast and is unnecessary.
Foam is for pan cars and Nitro...
I for one miss the awesome RIP of an open MOD but my 10.5 two years ago was about as fast as whatever brushed motor I've ever had. Then again I didn't have much opportunity to run on a big track with one.
So if there was no open class what would all the people on that list do at a home race. How many of them are local to each other and would it make a better show? Probably not... the same guys are going to win no matter what.
If Dave runs stock and you beat him... great ! But should he run Mod with only three other guys so someone else can win? NO... I for one want to beat those guys and if I have to say I came in first in class but didn't win... so be it. And the last thing I want to see is someone running MOD that has no right to be there.
.Thing is we would rather race a majority of others in whatever class rather than just a handful of guys where everyone makes the "A".
Personally VTA is just about perfect for a beginner but is also popular with the more skilled drivers. Inherently those beginners may think they need to go fast (I've seen so many rookies buy a 5.5, destroy a car or just get smoked by a 13.5 and quit) Thats about the mentality of a guy is "How fast is it?"
No one wants a slow race car but then again.... I know people who've killed themselves thinking they could drive a "FAST CAR".
Foam on a touring car is just ridiculously fast and is unnecessary.
Foam is for pan cars and Nitro...
I for one miss the awesome RIP of an open MOD but my 10.5 two years ago was about as fast as whatever brushed motor I've ever had. Then again I didn't have much opportunity to run on a big track with one.
So if there was no open class what would all the people on that list do at a home race. How many of them are local to each other and would it make a better show? Probably not... the same guys are going to win no matter what.
If Dave runs stock and you beat him... great ! But should he run Mod with only three other guys so someone else can win? NO... I for one want to beat those guys and if I have to say I came in first in class but didn't win... so be it. And the last thing I want to see is someone running MOD that has no right to be there.
06-17-2009, 08:36 AM
#71
Tech Initiate
the track for the european championship in Luxembourg is 310m long
it seems to be a very large track and they are going to run 5 cells mod.
for me is a track for mod with lipo.
it seems to be a very large track and they are going to run 5 cells mod.
for me is a track for mod with lipo.
06-17-2009, 08:36 AM
#72
I spent some time this year practicing with a mild mod (7.5) and it's wasn't the top end that was hard to control, but rather the amazing rip out of the turns. I think nitro tends to be a little softer on bottom, so it's easier to tame the speed. Plus, nitro tracks generally are bigger and more flowing.
06-17-2009, 08:42 AM
#73
Tech Initiate
some guys did it here.
weīre running on the same track as nitro
but go to a nitro track and try it and then see if itīs too much power.
Here we practice at the same time with nitro guys and can tell you the everything is similar.
06-17-2009, 08:50 AM
#74
íīve never heard nitro pilots saying, they have to much power, only the guys of electric say it.
probably the question is
why the cars are so underweight they could be as 1/10 200mm everything transmissions, diff. etc.
youīll never complain about wear as you do now.
but for me the most funny part is in every motor sport we try to go faster and here on rc electric we want to be more drivable, i think this is against human natur but itīs okay.
...
probably the question is
why the cars are so underweight they could be as 1/10 200mm everything transmissions, diff. etc.
youīll never complain about wear as you do now.
but for me the most funny part is in every motor sport we try to go faster and here on rc electric we want to be more drivable, i think this is against human natur but itīs okay.
...
06-17-2009, 09:09 AM
#75
with out wanting to say the age old saying of "man up"....which btw i happen to agree with lol.
IMO if you place in top 10 of a large race in stock class you should move up, simple as (i can tell already im going to be shot down in flames for this lol)
i dont really understand the idea of being factory for running in a stock class.
6.5 lipo we run in the UK feels slow tbh, im not sure how 17.5 would be
IMO if you place in top 10 of a large race in stock class you should move up, simple as (i can tell already im going to be shot down in flames for this lol)
i dont really understand the idea of being factory for running in a stock class.
6.5 lipo we run in the UK feels slow tbh, im not sure how 17.5 would be