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Old 06-18-2009, 03:55 PM   #211
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We are trying to revive modified at my local track and I haven't run brushless mod yet but was quite used to 8t brushed motors back in the day. What final drive would you recommend for a 3.5t on a nitro sized track?
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:11 PM   #212
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Im still of the opinion that Mod motors are for making people say,"Oh my gawwwd!" in the Wal Mart parking lot.
For most of us it is power for bashing because we want it, not because we can control it in a racing environment.

Still I am glad to have it available. Just a swipe of the card and the power is mine!
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:31 PM   #213
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it's my belief that lots of guys can cope with not running up front, so long as the front is not so far out there that it's out of sight and out of reach. In the stock classes (which have remained relatively popular as compared to the mod classes), the difference between the fastest guy and a mid pack but serious competitive racer is really not that much on the clock. Usually only a couple of tenths per lap and often not more than a lap accross a full run for sedans (and a bit wider margin for 1/12th since the run is longer). So it's understandable and natural that the mid pack stock guy can and will believe that he's got a shot of running up front if only he can make a few less driving mistakes, get the car to handle a tick better, and find a little bit more horsepower. That's what maintains the interest....ie the hope and the desire to narrow the gap and to gradually get a little closer to winning occasionally. But as the speed of the cars increase, it becomes more important to master everything related to their performance if one is to run well. It just gets harder to handle the car as the speed increases. The inevitable result of faster speeds is that the performance margin between the true expert and the mid pack guy naturally gets wider. And the hope for the mid pack guy of ever catching or keeping up with the front guy gets more diminished. When the quest for success feels "hopeless" then it's only natural for a guy to look for a new way to enjoy himself. So I suggest that somehow it's important to avoid a situation where the very best guys set the bar so high that everybody else looses interest. Sure it's way fun to see how fast Josh and Blackstock and Lemieux can go. But how many guys are going to want to try and run with them when that means pulling over to let them each pass 3 or 4 times per heat? No fun there, and no surprise that so few guys are signing up to absorb a sound drumming. Somehow the speed differential (not necessarily the speed) needs to be managed if we are to avoid the 'I give up' sysndrome. Just my $.02. I don't have a good suggestion for how to manage the speed differential, but I do think it would make some sense to try and understand the reason for the problem (ie the already low and still dropping participation in mod). Only with a good understanding of what's causing the problem will there be much chance of finding a viable fix for it. In some classes of real racing, they just add weight to the fastest cars to make them more "beatable" and to prevent demoralizing 'runaway' front runners. While that approach probably wouldn't work for our RC cars, some sort of similarly creative way to even the playing field might work. Almost unbelievably, in F1 they actually considering the use of a different rules package for the wealthy teams as compared to the rules for the more modestly funded teams as a way to even the competition. It's all in the interest of fostering closer competition and thus interest. Close competition does sound like what we need for our activity. Anybody got any workable suggestions for how to narrow the performance gap in mod??
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:34 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by punkboy View Post
I'd figure Traxxas Slash racing is the fastest growing. Those trucks have generated a ton of interest in the hobby from people all over who have never seen/heard of them before. Plus, trucks flying through the air in a parking lot is a definite attention getter
and i sold both my slashes when the SC10 was released and MOD motors were introduced into the mix, so much for low cost, low budget fun.
(it was the mod thing not the SC10 )
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:35 PM   #215
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Anybody got any workable suggestions for how to narrow the performance gap in mod??
'workable' means something different to each person, and nobody wants to sacrifice/tweak what they are doing in their own program for the good of the competition.

to put things in perspective, as out of control as mod foam is right now, the stock 'sandbaggers' aren't that far off. like robbie mentioned, we tried it a year ago at the gate...

dodge, hermann, goetz, xavier.. vs.. blackstock, hebert, chicky... we got our a**es kicked, as you would expect. however, most of us were still on the lead lap. never tried it before (seriously, ever) and in two days, could hot lap within a tenth, and run a lap off. (of course, there was no lemieux which would add another 1/2 lap+ ). is that worth bragging about? no! like robbie said, we pretty much looked like idiots. but that said, it was obvious that some reasonable amount of practice would yield the consistency needed to close more than half of that gap. we're talking tangible goals here. this is true for the current talent level of many, many stock/superstock drivers in the us. drew ellis just made the invite at the reedy as well.

my point is that we're never going to have a national mod class made out of guys that can't race stock well. but we could easily have one that's made of the guys who did/do. just a few years back, ray darroch and jeff dayger had some good finishes in their first year in mod. both have regressed since, and ray doesn't even like watching his car go around the track anymore. (funny, funny quotes coming out of him at the roar nats). why is this?

by my assessment, it all keeps pointing back to the same thing(s) ...

add to that a diminishing work ethic among our general demographic, and something apparently needs to be done if we want a decent 'elite' class to look up to.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:46 PM   #216
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mod must not become a 3rd spec class thats a lap faster than stock classes.

ditch super stock and set stock at 17.5t

limit mod if you must but 10.5t/2s lipo 1400g is too slow.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:13 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by seaball View Post
this exercise will help you with that...

1) get a sedan
2) strap in a 3.5
3) power it with a 7.4v lipo
now, this is the tricky part:
4) put it on a 40'x90' indoor track, and try to appear as though you've raced an r/c car before. then come back and post your findings.
if you found this exercise easy to accomplish, one of the two following things are likely:
a) you fit squarely in the majority of racers who think they are doing things much better than reality would suggest.b) we will be seeing your name in headlines shortly.
(when i tried it, i had more than one person suggest that my radio may be broken. ) (from that day forward, i look straight down at my radio each time i make a driving error. if it's a really bad error, i may even hit a few buttons or toggle something that makes noise ).
Iīm not that stupid to run mod on a track with 392 m2 our smallest track in Portugal is 40m x 20m is 186m long and itīs the same size of worlds track on Thailand. (Rheinard run 6cells with 4.0T motor).His brother said that small track in Portugal was a large track to him so for me it was very funny.


Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
The first thing that should be solved is making mod the same around the world. 5 cell is nice, but it's based on NiMH, which is clearly on its way out.

So, at the risk of offending the open mod purists... what about a World Spec Modified class? Something that's (hopefully) adopted around the world as the new mod, keeps the door open for NiMH or LiPo, and slows things down enough so they're still within reach of today's racer. Someone mentioned 10.5 max, which seems as good as anything, 'cause it's still rather fast, and is already easily available as a spec wind.
This seems to make sense on short tracks, which is where a lot of racing is done around the world. Obviously on bigger tracks, something like open mod might make more sense.
Your problem is that you run on very small tracks, that tracks are good for Mabuchi not for todayīs motors. So thatīs why everyone there runs stock.
Try to make a really 1/10 track, donīt we run tenth scale why tracks arenīt that 1/10 size youīre trying to use a 1/10th on a 1/18 or 1/24th track.
So what you want ? move to larger tracks.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:20 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by vafactor View Post
it's my belief that lots of guys can cope with not running up front, so long as the front is not so far out there that it's out of sight and out of reach. In the stock classes (which have remained relatively popular as compared to the mod classes), the difference between the fastest guy and a mid pack but serious competitive racer is really not that much on the clock. Usually only a couple of tenths per lap and often not more than a lap accross a full run for sedans (and a bit wider margin for 1/12th since the run is longer). So it's understandable and natural that the mid pack stock guy can and will believe that he's got a shot of running up front if only he can make a few less driving mistakes, get the car to handle a tick better, and find a little bit more horsepower. That's what maintains the interest....ie the hope and the desire to narrow the gap and to gradually get a little closer to winning occasionally. But as the speed of the cars increase, it becomes more important to master everything related to their performance if one is to run well. It just gets harder to handle the car as the speed increases. The inevitable result of faster speeds is that the performance margin between the true expert and the mid pack guy naturally gets wider. And the hope for the mid pack guy of ever catching or keeping up with the front guy gets more diminished. When the quest for success feels "hopeless" then it's only natural for a guy to look for a new way to enjoy himself. So I suggest that somehow it's important to avoid a situation where the very best guys set the bar so high that everybody else looses interest. Sure it's way fun to see how fast Josh and Blackstock and Lemieux can go. But how many guys are going to want to try and run with them when that means pulling over to let them each pass 3 or 4 times per heat? No fun there, and no surprise that so few guys are signing up to absorb a sound drumming. Somehow the speed differential (not necessarily the speed) needs to be managed if we are to avoid the 'I give up' sysndrome. Just my $.02. I don't have a good suggestion for how to manage the speed differential, but I do think it would make some sense to try and understand the reason for the problem (ie the already low and still dropping participation in mod). Only with a good understanding of what's causing the problem will there be much chance of finding a viable fix for it. In some classes of real racing, they just add weight to the fastest cars to make them more "beatable" and to prevent demoralizing 'runaway' front runners. While that approach probably wouldn't work for our RC cars, some sort of similarly creative way to even the playing field might work. Almost unbelievably, in F1 they actually considering the use of a different rules package for the wealthy teams as compared to the rules for the more modestly funded teams as a way to even the competition. It's all in the interest of fostering closer competition and thus interest. Close competition does sound like what we need for our activity. Anybody got any workable suggestions for how to narrow the performance gap in mod??
There are some who would be deeply disappointed if the upper echelon of racing was cheapened with handicaps. On average there may not be as many racers willing to work and work and work to get better, but the ones that are left want to really know where they stand honestly.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:26 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by jopor View Post
Iīm not that stupid to run mod on a track with 392 m2 our smallest track in Portugal is 40m x 20m is 186m long and itīs the same size of worlds track on Thailand. (Rheinard run 6cells with 4.0T motor).His brother said that small track in Portugal was a large track to him so for me it was very funny.



Your problem is that you run on very small tracks, that tracks are good for Mabuchi not for todayīs motors. So thatīs why everyone there runs stock.
Try to make a really 1/10 track, donīt we run tenth scale why tracks arenīt that 1/10 size youīre trying to use a 1/10th on a 1/18 or 1/24th track.
So what you want ? move to larger tracks.

so then i expect your lanes are only 3 cars wide??
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:26 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by fathead View Post
Maybe people are looking at it wrong, maybe instead of the cars being too fast, the tracks are too slow, it seems to me that the car technology has moved forward but the tracks haven't
In full size racing the tracks are changed to accommodate the cars over the years as they have gotten faster, not the other way around (mostly).
Thatīs the point everyone has faster cars but the tracks are still for mabuchi
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:54 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Run time, no problem - can run 3 minutes past the race time with way too much motor. The problem is racers.... As production slows on NiMh to the point the prices go up and Europe and Asia finally switch from 5-cell to 7.4v Lipo due to availability then the rest of the world will see/have this problem as well. Too much power, cars undrivable, tearing through tires/equipment but there are a few (Pro's) that can get it around the track. This is the coming death of TC Mod... Just like 1/10 6-cell pan cars have but it's funny to see people who don't even race Mod commenting on what Modified is and what it should be.....

Home work assignment... EVERYONE (not just those who wish to voice their opinion about a class of racing they know nothing about) grab a 4.5 (being reasonable) and a 5000, 40C pack and go drive. Get 6-10 people out on the track and try and race.... Tell me how much fun you have and how much money you spent doing it.....
youīre right Josh the guys donīt run mod shouldnīt talk about because they donīt know what are saying.

did you see the videos i put in here
the first one is my son running mod with
gm 6 delta + speedo gm 120 + trakpower 4900 and now gm 4200 30c and i going to buy CS 5200 40C and has you see thatīs not much for the track
And here on mod everyone uses combo like this one

iīm gonna tell you again, in US canīt run mod on that kind of tracks, not made for mod, even for 10.5 i doubt

Have you been in Thailand? what did you run there?
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Old 06-18-2009, 07:14 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by jopor
Iīm not that stupid to run mod on a track with 392 m2 our smallest track in Portugal is 40m x 20m is 186m long and itīs the same size of worlds track on Thailand. (Rheinard run 6cells with 4.0T motor).His brother said that small track in Portugal was a large track to him so for me it was very funny.



Your problem is that you run on very small tracks, that tracks are good for Mabuchi not for todayīs motors. So thatīs why everyone there runs stock.
Try to make a really 1/10 track, donīt we run tenth scale why tracks arenīt that 1/10 size youīre trying to use a 1/10th on a 1/18 or 1/24th track.
So what you want ? move to larger tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
so then i expect your lanes are only 3 cars wide??
Last weekend we were at the worlds 1/10 200mm track for a round of our National Championship if you think itīs 3 cars wide, itīs up to you.
The problem is not the width of the track but is perimeter if you have tracks about 100m or 150m what you want?
Make a small exercise F1 circuit is about 4 km long so 1/10 should be about 400m
I know most of the tracks were made when you used NICAD and Mabuchi so thatīs why they are so small, but now you donīt have to run mod on that try larger one (nitro) and let smallest for stock, and 10.5 maybe too fast even fotr that ones.
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Old 06-18-2009, 07:14 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by jopor View Post
Iīm not that stupid to run mod on a track with 392 m2 our smallest track in Portugal is 40m x 20m is 186m long and itīs the same size of worlds track on Thailand. (Rheinard run 6cells with 4.0T motor).His brother said that small track in Portugal was a large track to him so for me it was very funny.
A bit of truth in this history. Tony NEVER said that our smallest track was a big track to him. He said that of another tracks here. BTW i also like that comparison with Marc and the drivers in Portugal and what he can do in small tracks with any combo you choose. His just the world champion at the moment, nothing relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jopor View Post
Your problem is that you run on very small tracks, that tracks are good for Mabuchi not for todayīs motors. So thatīs why everyone there runs stock.
Try to make a really 1/10 track, donīt we run tenth scale why tracks arenīt that 1/10 size youīre trying to use a 1/10th on a 1/18 or 1/24th track.
So what you want ? move to larger tracks.
I'm sure Jopor had run in the US many times so far. LOL

Last edited by jorgesimes; 06-18-2009 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 06-18-2009, 07:25 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by jopor View Post
Quote:
Make a small exercise F1 circuit is about 4 km long so 1/10 should be about 400m
That's a really good exercise. The problem is that the F1 driver is maybe a 1 meter distance from the track and for me a see them on TV. Now passed for our tracks and i'm trying to see a curve at a 50 meters distance and trying to make my huge 1/10th car passing that curve perfectly - exactly the same.

Continuing the exercise my 1/10th huge car pass that straight at the maybe almost 90 Km/h, which at 1/1 should give something like 900 Km/h. What is really the fastest a F1 can go?

LOL
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:03 PM   #225
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Wow,
15 pages in 2 days. This topic on "lack of MOD racers" is a catalyst for other subjects on every Electric racer mind. How to increase attendance and particiipation in Electric RC Racing.
- Quick sidetrack - We have a SS 13.5 XRAY 008, a Mod (4.5) XRAY 009, and a USVTA 21.5/LiPo. The Trans Am car was the most expensive to build because everything has to be perfect to be competitive. It is also has the most expensive components and cost the most to maintain. It takes the most time to maintain perfect handling. Therefore, the slower the spec class, the more it will cost. Also it requires perfect driving lines and racing strategy - lap after lap for 8 minutes.
Nitro Off-Road and Nitro On-Road only have 2 class each. Truggy/Buggy or Sedan/1-8 Scale. Each class only has one motor size and one size fuel tank. The nitro classes are basically MOD speeds relative to their track sizes. The nitro classes only have 1 surface each. Also, the size tracks are very close in dimensions.

Electic has:
  • indoor / outdoor
  • carpet / asphalt
  • large and open / small and tight
  • high grip / low grip
  • impact friendly barriers / non-friendly barriers
  • foam / rubber
As you can see, there is already too many variables. We did not even get to motor winds or battery voltage.

Let's rebuild electric racing from the top down. The current thought is to build it from the bottom (stock) up. Also, how can US best prepare at least 10 racers to compete on the international level.

To shorten this post, I will get to the skinny.
First thing... kill Foam TC. There is limited international equivalent. Now we have just outdoor and indoor. Next, the 1S LiPo and voltage booster/receiver pack in 1/12 scale is ridiculous. Spec a slower motor with a 2s battery and call it a day. Only have 1 battery type for all classes - 2s LiPo.

Next, make the motors easy to tech and stay teched. For example:
- Once a Duo 13.5 motor is teched, the motor is put back together and one of the screws is longer and comes out the back. A tamper proof serialized certification tag is inserted in a hole through the screw. The motor cannot be taken apart again without going through the certification process. Motor certification is done by an independent Engineering firm which is bonded and insured for accuracy. Cap the certification cost to $35 including shipping.

Outdoor (Asphalt)
  • 1/12 (2s LiPo) - 21.5 (stock) / 13.5 (Mod)
  • TC Rubber (2s LiPo) - 17.5 (stock) / 10.5 (SuperStock) / 7.5,5.5 (Mod)
  • WorldGT - 17.5 (2s LiPo)
Indoor (Carpet/Asphalt)
  • 1/12 (2s LiPo) - 21.5 (stock) / 13.5 (Mod)
  • TC Rubber (2s LiPo) - 21.5 (stock) / 13.5 (SuperStock) / 7.5 (Mod)
  • WorldGT - 17.5 (2s LiPo)
MOD
As you can see from the mod class above, the motor wind is limited. Outdoor has the option of 2 winds depending on the track size. The MOD wind limit is advertised before the outdoor event. Therefore, a MOD race only needs to keep at the most 2 winds in his bag (7.5 or 5.5)

Other thoughts to improve participation leading up to a larger MOD class
- have a Junior championship (SuperStock only) at the regional and national level (18 years or younger)
- All trophy events should have mandatory bump ups and triple A mains.
- get rid of the spec rubber tire requirement. (Tires are just as important for the Nitro classes and there is no spec tires or spec fuel there). Inserts are more important in Off-Road racing and you done see the wining there.
- indoor track barrier material should be spec. Outdoor material should be berms or dots. Material and layout should conform to a minimum spec.
- 2s LiPo for TC / WorldGT should be the EFRA spec size - 23.5 max height. Not 25.1 as currently spec in ROAR.
- Stock is only for the sportsman or beginner racer. If you can race at speed for 6 minutes without hitting something and TQ, then you have to move up to Super Stock. If you are a team driver, sponsored, get a discount or endorse a R/C racing product, then you have to move up to SuperStock.
- The top 5 guys in the A main SuperStock of a National race (Snowbirds, Reedy, IIC, Roar Nats) have to move up to MOD within 1 year of the ranking event. Anybody in the top 10 of a national race 2 years in a row, have to move up to MOD. All racers who get a car 75% off MSRP or better have to move up to MOD.
This rule is retroactive to Jan 1, 2009.
- Create a ranking system for SuperStock and MOD racers. Ranking will only be based on outdoor asphalt racing. Ranking is based on your finish at only ROAR regional and national events.
- Increase ROAR annual membership to $50 to cover the cost of ranking and sending MOD team to Worlds.
- There is no Stock TC racing at the national races. (Reduce the number of classes and increase participation)
- Hire a PR firm to have a national televise campaign. Rebadge it a SPORT, not a HOBBY.

back to MOD racing
- The top 10 MOD racers of a the On-Road ROAR Nats are sent to a 1 week fully paid training session at either Speedworld (CA) or Jackson R/C (NJ) in preparation for the Worlds. Cost will be covered by 1/2 ROAR ($2,000 cap each) and 1/2 chassis sponsor. Team is then sent onto Worlds ($5,000 cap each). Balance by fund raiser from local track, chassis sponsor, and other donations.
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