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Old 02-11-2002, 07:56 PM   #46
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No debate, I just like to use rubber tires since our tracks are ran on unsealed asphault. No one uses foams here since everything is outdoors 365 days a year.
I really like the Tamiya type A/B tires, since you really only need these to cover the temp ranges.
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Old 02-11-2002, 08:47 PM   #47
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Wild Cherry- Good point about smaller foams being faster than larger foams. It's just that in the past people have made the argument that you CAN'T race foams without a tire truer and of course this is ludicrous. If no one else has a truer than everyone is level anyway and if someone else does have a truer my experience is that they let people use it so everything is level again(or people/track goes in together and purchases one).
Also, even when foams are small they give greater consistency, more grip (even on asphalt) and more high performance runs than rubber tires as I am sure you already know.
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Old 02-11-2002, 11:30 PM   #48
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darnold, I use to race pan car`s with foams year`s ago...
We learn that a smaller tire was way faster...
So in comes that tire grinder & grind we did...
We would end up with tires that were worth only a couple of runs...

I believe that is still what happens when you run foams...
Add in the fact that motor & battery`s are push even harder cus of the extra traction, so you not only gona need a tire $grinder$, you are gona need lots more $$$ `s for battery`s & motor`s just to keep up...

Foams are gona make the average racer pay lots more moo-la ...
Its not just how long foams last that sould be consider here .

The whole picture of this issue sould be consider if you what a informed decision on what tire works for making a good race...
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Old 02-12-2002, 02:26 AM   #49
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George it sounds like you have been listening to Bridgewater and Scotty too much. With sedan foams you dont have to turn them to the last nth of foam to get the most speed out of them. Also lets look at the audience I am talking about here as well, I am talking about this as a MOD SEDAN class only not a novice class or even a stock sedan class. The guys that are willing to commit the extra money or even just want to go that much faster are the guys that I am talking about going to foam. I want to race on foam because I will be 1.5 seconds faster per lap and my damn car wont slide around the track like it is on ICE. I know that there is alot of stuff that you can do in order to make a car dialed on rubber but i am just not into it. When I ran 1/8 scale on-road we used FOAM. 1/8 on-road is considered to be the F-1 or R/C racing, the top technology is used, you dont use rubber because you arent anyway near as fast on rubber as you are on foam, and rubber has a tendency to fade off into oblivion after a few 5 minute runs, all the oil leaves the tire and you are left with a really expensive rubber band. Scott has a truer at the track that he will let the racers use, FOAM tires mounted on Velocity rims( about 33 dollars) are way cheaper than Rubber tires and inserts and wheels(over 50 dollars)and like I said above after a few runs you end up with worthless tires. Add into this equation that the FOAM tires are the same compound from the first run to the last, you dont get that with RUBBER. Also, as far as the battery issue goes, I can run 1700's and make a 5 min mod race, throttle control is a huge factor in this game as well. The cars are also much more smooth on foam so that equates to more efficiency as well (longer run-times) they just dont scrub off speed like the rubber tires do, also the motor issue, you act like we are all going to have to buy dynoes and zappers and stuff that just isnt going to happen, we can all buy the same level of motors over the counter. Add all of these things up and you will understand why FOAM is better than RUBBER any day of the week and twice on THURSDAYs. Plus I get to race against alot of my buddies from 1/8 on-road that race there during the winter.
IKE

Last edited by FoamDonuts; 02-15-2002 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 02-12-2002, 01:28 PM   #50
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Just to let you guys know, tiny is not faster on tc cars. The reason pan cars , 1/10 especially, run such small tires is the compound. They usually use softer tires than tc cars, so to keep the sidewall flex down, as well as ride height, they make them small. Sedans use much harder tires since they are heavier, and ride height is much more adjustable. I know that most pro drivers run tires about 2.25 in. when they start. This is mostly a big race tire size. Depending on your class you can get a couple weekends out of tires like this. Start them at 2.35 and they last a looong time, with very little difference in performance.
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Old 02-12-2002, 02:23 PM   #51
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Wild Cherry- Thanks for your insights. I would also like to add however that your lack of experience from "a long time ago" sheds light on your misinformation and statements due to the changes in tire technology. This is what I meant when I talked about people having a favorite class and dispelling wrong information aimed at pulling people to their way of running. I honestly think that there are enough racers to run the 5 major classes of 1/8th & 1/10th gas on-road/off-road, 12th & 10th electric on-road/off-road in their standard formats. It seems the problem comes in when tracks/people decide that racing should be one way or another and then by their conversation and policies they start to FORCE people into running "their" class. You wind up with tracks that will only run Foam or Rubber or tracks that won't let "that class" run because "their" class is the most popular, blah,blah,blah. BTW concerning the foam information you sited in 12th scale we typically run larger tires now so trueing is less of an issue and the compounds available for the past 6+ yrs have been with the exotic foams that wear 3 times longer than the old "Green Dots" used to. As a result you get vastly greater longevity and consistency than the old days of the 80's. It's similar to what happened when the Green's came out vs. the old "c", "d", and "soft" compounds that Jomac, MIP, and Assoc. used to race in 12th scale. They gave so much more grip while drastically decreasing wear that they became the defacto tire to use. Now the defacto compounds are purple fronts and gray rears=12th scale carpet, purple fronts and pink rears=12th asphalt and plaid front and purple rears=TC carpet. You spend less, have more traction and control and go faster. Does this make it better than rubber? By some peoples definition the answer is yes and by others the answer is no. I just believe there is enough to go around but maybe it's really about fear. Fear that when people see more forms of racing that they may run something other than what they have been or in conjunction to what they have been. It really seems like this is one of the main issues with both 12th scale and TC Foam.
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Old 02-12-2002, 02:44 PM   #52
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Robk,
I start my TC tires out at 2.35 and they last about 60+ runs. So I agree with you wholeheartedly as well as you Dave.
IKE
P.S.Darnold did you respond to my query in the 1/12 forum yet?
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Old 02-12-2002, 02:57 PM   #53
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I think rubber tires work well in a "control tire" type event, but the same can be achieved with foam.

In Sydney, Australia most of the clubs here allow the individual racer to choose what they want to run, foam or rubber. This keeps everyone happy, some tracks rubber works well others the choice is foam.

90% of my racing is on foam, the car is faster handles better and i can uses many differnt brands of foam tyre with having to change my car setup.

just my 2c worth.
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Old 02-12-2002, 03:57 PM   #54
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I race at rain city raceway in the seattle area that is a large smooth carpet track. we have been running foam classes and rubber classes since the rule change and this is whats been happening. in 4 min. mod it is deffinately harder to make runtime and be fast with foams, but foams are about a second faster per lap and a lap faster per run. also, of course the car is easier to drive with foams.

the benefit of rubber is runtime, no chunking, and better wear than foams.

also rubber separates the men from the boys a little more since the car is a little harder to drive.

I personally like both for different reasons. I dont care what we run but mod sedan on foams is my favorite thing to drive in the world....talk about fast!!!!! later racers....peace
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Old 02-12-2002, 11:05 PM   #55
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Foams- I had just left to go practice and I just got home not too long ago, you have a couple of post on the 12th scale forum.

Blaz- Glad to hear you are having fun with the foams. If you round off the edges like my pals Robk and KevinK (and others) have mentioned and check you wheel well clearances there should be a reduction in chunking. Also, you're correct that the extra grip of foams draws more current than rubber. This means that the setup has to be more than just good handling but it must also be efficient with it corner speed. This is often overlooked and requires way more setup expertise and driver throttle control than people take into account. For instance if they are 1sec per lap faster than their rubber times (sounds about right) than they should be about 3-4 laps up on their mod rubber lap totals. That means that people have to finish the run well and that means consitent laps and efficient working cars in the corners. Basically the general rule for lap time equations that I have noticed over the past 3yrs are: 12th mod/TC Foam Mod same lap times, 12th StockTC Rubber Mod same lap times and .8-1sec per lap slower than 12thmod/TC Foam Mod. TC Foam Stock is another .3sec per lap slower than 12th Stock/TC Rubber Mod, and, TC Rubber Stock is 1sec per lap slower than 12th stock/TC Rubber Mod.
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Old 02-12-2002, 11:16 PM   #56
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A general point to remember concerning rubber tires is that there is a HUGE difference between optimum performance and usable duration. Often a new set of rubber tires will give a noticable and consistent difference in lap times for the first 10runs vs. the next 30 runs. It seems that people often don't realize this point and they think that the tire really has 40 runs in it easy. An example was last week when our track changed it's layout to a more difficult setup. As manager said: "...People found out real quick the difference between fresh tires and used tires that they thought were still good because their lap times were a second/lap off if they had tires that were done and in less than one day we sold out of our whole wall of tires..." This is the reality of rubber that Robk, KevinK, and others have been trying to make known to people. If people are able to keep their laps fairly consitent and or they race in low grip or changing situations then they may not notice as easily. On high bite tracks (especially carpet) people don't realize that .2 sec per lap is a lap difference! Just something to think about.
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Old 02-12-2002, 11:27 PM   #57
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boy is it late- I meant to say: "As he manager said..." also noticable should be noticeable. Concerning peoples ability to run consistent laps it should read: "if people are UNable to keep their laps fairly consistent..." and finally from the previous post it should read that TC Mod Foam lap totals should be about 2-3 laps faster than their TC Mod Rubber lap totals (instead of 3-4 laps). If it were 12th mod due to the extra time of the race it would be so. I'm getting ready to go to bed now.
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Old 02-13-2002, 03:07 AM   #58
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How do you glue your foams?
I use evostick impact adhesive.
The glue seems to be attacked by the additive so after a while you get areas without glue.
Also when you put the tyre on the rim it seems to be impossible to avoid pushing all the glue to one side. Again this results in dry patches. Once the glue is gone at the edge of the tyre it will soon chunk.

Personally I think that the cars with foams are too easy to drive and it puts too much empasis on batteries and motors. But it's what they run locally.

Also at our track we typically run 9 - 10 second laps.
With a minimum of 8 cars in a heat you can sometimes end up being lapped before you have started the race. Come last in your first run and it's round three before you can get high enough up the starting order to even challenge for tq.
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Old 02-13-2002, 10:57 AM   #59
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dw- Foams are easier to drive but people usually miss the fact that in order to go fast you must have enough traction. So when the Big Guys show up they marvel at their cars and driving not realizing that these guys cars on rubber stick way better than their own cars do. In other words people don't realze how high the standard even for rubber tires really is and as a result they never really get FAST. If people setup their cars on rubber to have as much grip as the Big Guys cars do their cars would be WAY easier to drive also and more comparable to Foams in that regard. When I glue and true my own tires I use contact cement from Sears Harware, stuff that is meant for industrial plumbing joints (pvc) and such. Put the glue on both the inside of the tire and coat the rim and let them dry for a day or two. Then when you are ready to mount the foam take some lacquer thinner and put it on the rim and inside the foam to moisten the glue a little and then slide the foam on the rim. This last step goes easier if you use a Kimbrough tire horn ($3-$4). Also, it sounds like you guys may not use IFMAR Qualifying and as a result on a small track like that with that many cars any racing is tough. Maybe you can suggest that they use 4-6 cars per heat for Qualifying and 8 cars in the mains. This way a race day would be more enjoyable for everyone and they can concentrate on doing their best instead of trying to beat everyone each run because each run is a race.
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Old 02-13-2002, 12:56 PM   #60
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I forget what glue we used to use for 12th scale tires in the 80s, before the good tires came mounted, but the stuff was black..
also, you have to dip them in laquer thinner after you put the glue on them, but right before you slide them on the rim. this keeps the glue from pushing off the rim.
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