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Old 12-15-2003, 03:15 AM   #1
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Default Brushless Motors and ROAR / IFMAR???

Tought this might be an interesting topic for us racers to discuss.

Recently here in Australia our IFMAR affliated National Body "AARCMCC" passed a rule allowing the use of approved Brushless Motors for use in AARCMCC sactioned events, like State Titles and the Australian Nationals. The vote was passed after a positive majority vote by member clubs. Basically the "racers" got what they wanted http://www.aarcmcc.org

Many of our local regional clubs already allowed the use of BL motors in the Mod touring classes.

What are the thoughts on this toipic from clubs and racers in the USA? (or any other country?).

Anyone support this idea? Should ROAR or IFMAR consider similar changes and allow BL motors?


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Old 12-15-2003, 04:26 AM   #2
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i have had a go at one of my friends brushless motors (novak) in his xray. i think they should be aloud because i dont find them a very big threat coz they are like a 2wd F1 accelerating to quickly out of a corner.

i find them as just a nother new invention which could be a threat in the future, but then again they are just another chalenger to beat.

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Old 12-15-2003, 06:40 AM   #3
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I think ROAR should consider allowing BL in mod class. This would encourage more people to try running mod, because a lot of people hesitate to run mod due to the extra maintainance. Also, the Novak BL poses no performance threat to existing mod brushed motors, so it does not upset the balance of the playing field. The BL motors that do pose a performance threat (like the Hacker) are to difficult to drive smooth on a track, so those pose no on track threat to existing tech.

But I do not feel that BL should be allowed in stock class, even if the new 4800 BL can is comparable performance wise to a ROAR stock motor. I honestly think BL tech will kill off stock class if allowed in stock class, even though I think it would dramatically help mod class turnout if allowed in mod class.
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Old 12-15-2003, 07:03 AM   #4
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I think the "mod" class should be called an open class where you can run anything you want assuming its availible to all.
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Old 12-15-2003, 07:30 AM   #5
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Judging from track performance around me, I agree with murfy. They are fast and easy on maintanance, but the guys running brushed are still winning the races.

I also agree that BL has no business being in stock. Thats like letting an F1 car race in stock car racing as long as it never goes faster than the stock cars. I.e. its either too fast and therefore unfair, or its too slow and no one wants to run a slower motor.

Put me down for legalizing them in mod. Mod to me is as fast as possible, not just as fast as possible with brushes.
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Old 12-15-2003, 07:55 AM   #6
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I had the oppertunity to sit in on a meeting of IFMAR officials at the Off Road Worlds back in October where this issue was brought up. Bob Novak has presented IFMAR and its member Blocs with proposed rules regarding a seperate brushless class. This is in it's very beginnings right now. If Brushless motors are to be allowed at a National or World caliber event, it sounded like they will try to keep them seperate. I do have to commend Novak for coming up with a number of guidelines that other manufacturers either already meet or could easily meet.

As far as brushless in other classes....IN the Limited mode, guys running stock here are faster then the brushless class. In unlimited, they are only a few tenths faster. The challenge with the brushless motors as they are currently is that all the power and torque (or at least a lot of it) is on the bottom end. If one of the manufacturers could come up with a "Real" speed controller,one with different throttle curve profiles or even (god forbid) one with a current limiter to soften up the bottom end and make it more driveable. A lot of people have used the throttle expo on their radios to help, but this only does so much.
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Old 12-15-2003, 09:14 AM   #7
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I think in mod,all brushless systems should be allowed.no speed restriction.i mean even if someone whips out a 6T Hacker , it's still gonna have weight issues and not to mention plenty of cogging.
so in the end it balances out.
as for stock well it's better to have a separate class,where in it either ALL manufacturers adhere to a certain speed/torque standard that is easily verifiable.If the manufacturers cannot agree,then it'll have to be a class for every system(which frankly isn't that prospective)

In the very bottom line , brushless systems are only more efficient , it's not always faster.How can we say no to that??
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Old 12-15-2003, 09:50 AM   #8
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My question has always been-what does a Brushless NOvak system compare to "TRULY" in track performance? Unbiased factual data!!! For example-is it just as fast as a 10x2 Reedy Ti and/or Trinity D5 say at 15 degrees timing? GIve or take some torque and RPM, etc?

Or is it more like a 12 x 1, a 15 x 2 a 19 turn????????

I ask because I am not opposed to buying and running one in Modified Sedan at my track (I'll allow them in Modified for ourClub races-no problem!!), but I dont want to be slow compared to all the guys running 9 and 10 turns either.

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Old 12-15-2003, 09:58 AM   #9
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I've been playing with the 4300 motor and I can say that yea, it is quite an advantage over brushed stock motors. Running them side-by-side is probably not going to happen -- or at least not without complaints from brushed motor drivers. Still, because of the torque, it takes some time to get used to driving it. It most definitely makes the car looser, especially in the corners. In other words, don't lift!

Standing on its own, though, I think the 4300 will be an excellent motor for a spec racing class at the stock level. It is more controllable than the faster 5800 on the average track.

The Novak US Touring Car Champs race this year (Jan 8-11 @ Trackside) will have a brushless motor class. It will be interesting to see how that goes.
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:23 PM   #10
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I would think the main reason the ruling bodies would be reluctant to let brushless run alongside brushed motors in mod is because they can't predict what new technological advances brushless companies could come out with in the future. If brushless and brushed motors were running side by side and Novak suddenly came out with a system that was 1 second per lap faster than current brushed motors, the whole class would pretty much fall apart, and brushed motor manufacturers would go broke pretty quickly. I agree that current brushless tech can't really compete with brushed motors in terms of speed, but we don't know if and when brushless motors will get a breakthrough and suddenly brushed will become completely obsolete.
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:29 PM   #11
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In Australia we have implemented a system that means the Brushless motor and speedo combination must be approved, similar to the current situation with Stock and Mod motors and approval lists.
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
I had the oppertunity to sit in on a meeting of IFMAR officials at the Off Road Worlds back in October where this issue was brought up. Bob Novak has presented IFMAR and its member Blocs with proposed rules regarding a seperate brushless class. This is in it's very beginnings right now. If Brushless motors are to be allowed at a National or World caliber event, it sounded like they will try to keep them seperate. I do have to commend Novak for coming up with a number of guidelines that other manufacturers either already meet or could easily meet.

As far as brushless in other classes....IN the Limited mode, guys running stock here are faster then the brushless class. In unlimited, they are only a few tenths faster. The challenge with the brushless motors as they are currently is that all the power and torque (or at least a lot of it) is on the bottom end. If one of the manufacturers could come up with a "Real" speed controller,one with different throttle curve profiles or even (god forbid) one with a current limiter to soften up the bottom end and make it more driveable. A lot of people have used the throttle expo on their radios to help, but this only does so much.
I agree with you, we've seen a couple of guys at our local track try the Novak SS system too(in both limited & unlimited modes), & that's what we've noticed, in limited mode, the motor still has the power & torque of a good 12 turn brushed motor, so it can be VERY hard to put the power down if your car's not set up just right(the way thoe cars accelerate with the SS in them, looks to me like what we experience when using a good, torquey Reedy Ti-series motor, sometimes so much torque that every time you use the throttle you get lots of wheelspin on anything less than a perfect surface), & in unlimited mode they still look like a good 12 turn, including all the top end of one(the limited mode just seems to use a rev limiter to control its top end). Personally, I don't mind seeing them in mod class, but they definitely don't belong in stock, & they'd definitely be best used in a dedicated brushless class(& I'm glad to see that the governing bodies are considering just that). It'll be VERY interesting to see the brushless class run at the Novak TC Champs in Milwaukee in a few weeks, will be an excellent chance to see what they can do......
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Old 12-16-2003, 07:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
The BL motors that do pose a performance threat (like the Hacker) are to difficult to drive smooth on a track, so those pose no on track threat to existing tech.
Have you had a go of a properly setup car with a 6turn hacker in it?
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Old 12-16-2003, 08:05 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by dontfeelcold
Have you had a go of a properly setup car with a 6turn hacker in it?
i've seen some up close.
it's not faster than a 7T brushed which is the lowest i can find around here.
the hacker would also require an extra RX pack which is a weight problem.
I dont know about yours but most of those that i see have some level of cogging problems..where it jerks a little out of standstill.
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Old 12-16-2003, 02:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by black-knight
In Australia we have implemented a system that means the Brushless motor and speedo combination must be approved, similar to the current situation with Stock and Mod motors and approval lists.
im not about to air any dirty laundry here but i cant see how you can draw ESC's being approved as well as motors out of our rules... (unless ifmar chooses to do so)
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