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Tamiya F104 Pro!

Old 09-11-2009, 03:20 AM
  #826  
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Originally Posted by veecee
Basically I want to run F103 tyres - more options and level playing field with everyone else. I've never owned an F103 so I just wanted to know how wide the car is with F103 tyres. I know there are no set rules for F1 yet but in case there are I want to know where this setup stands. I also want to look at ways to widen the front to be the same width front and rear. And knowing the rear is ok, I can just focus on widening the front end. Enlightened?
I see. But then again, it's not an level playing field already. The 104 is longer than the 103 and it seem to have am inherent understeer. If u run 103 tires, since they are wider it might not work. It may become too stable.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:20 PM
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I have an old TAMIYA Group C car and wanted to know if the F104 wheels & tires will fit, especially the rear wheels. Also wanted to know if the F104 foam tires will fit the Group C car wheels.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:29 PM
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Some laps from todays testing. The car is very easy to drive, just a slight push and no issues with high speed unstability.
It was quite cold so the grip was a bit on the low side - kit tires with no tire additive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt5TfMQCtts
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:58 PM
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Looks good mate! Where are you at in terms of mods and setup?
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:18 PM
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just saw these over on tamiyablog

58447 Ferrari F60 (F104)
89922 PS F60 Red (Limited Edition) (for 58447)
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by InZane
Does anyone know the shore ratings for the A & B?
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Old 09-12-2009, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by veecee
We're talking overall width of the car here mate - ie overall rear width of F104 w/F103 rear wheels vs overall rear width of F103. So what robk is saying is that rear width of both cars is the same when using F103 rear wheels. I hope...
ic sorry about that
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:13 AM
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@Inzane:

First of all: i like the modifications you did on your car very much, my compliments! Looks really good. About the setup: on the video it seems that the car is a little tricky at the rear, especially in the infield of the track? Is that right? By the way: its a short track, with no long straight, but some tight corners. I drive in Holland on a 250 meters long track, with a straight of more than 50 meters. The car (standard setup) steers well in the low speed corners, but is a little unstable on the straight (with 8.5 BL motor) and has a lot of understeer at higher speeds. What is your setup, can you post it here? Do you use the soft t-bar?

Greez,
Marcel.
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Old 09-13-2009, 03:35 AM
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Thanx Marcel for your kind words.



No I don't find the handling tricky at all - I drove the car that day for more than 300 laps without losing the rear at any occasion. The car felt perfectly balanced, when taking a turn to hard it just went into a 4 wheel drift. It's hard to tell from the video but I was on full throttle just before hitting apex of every corner. I didn't have to let of through the sweeper all the way down to the 120deg. after the drivers stand - thats like 35 meters, without a trace of instability. But I still think the the set up can be improved a lot. I'd like it to have more "crisp" steering response and of course more speed.

I've made an adjustable Gurney Flap for fine tuning the high speed characteristics.



I think the handling issues with the F104 comes from the problem to find a balance between the side to side flex and the flex back and forth.
If you mount the thin/soft Tbar the inner front wheel will lose contact with the surface when taking a turn = push. If you go with the harder T-bar the rear will be airborne in high speed for the slightest imperfections in the track = high speed instability.

Somehow you need to modify the rear to make it softer back&forth without affecting the side&side flex.

I've made slits in the T-bar on both sides of the pivot screw (pic in a post earlier in this thread) and angled the rear part of the pivot post 1.5mm - I hope you can get the idéa from the pic.



Except from that you have all the info in the set up sheet.

I hope this can help.
Regards,
Pekka "Inzane" Markkula
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
F104_Inzane0909.pdf (166.3 KB, 716 views)
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Old 09-13-2009, 03:57 AM
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@inzane: thanks for the setup sheet! I think the gurny flap will help a lot, we tested with F103 wings, that have more downforce, and that also helps. The problem now is the understeer. The strange thing is that with harder front tires, the understeer is less...i did not expect that. I understand your solution with the slits in the t-bar, but dont understand what you did with the rear part of the pivot-post, can you explain that? What tbar you used now? In the pics i saw you made the slits in de soft one.

So i'm looking now for a solution for the understeer at high speeds, with enough grip in the rear. How is the steer at high speeds with the soft tbar? You said it gives push, what is that? Sorry my english is not that good.

I also saw that you have 0 degrees toe, i have toe-in now, maybe that also gives the understeer.

Greets,
Marcel
Holland.
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:18 AM
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Does this help?



And I forgot - I'm on the hard (black kit) T-bar.
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:22 AM
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Thanks for the setup Inzane! Did using the offset upright calm the twitchiness down? I am going to spend some time with the car this week and I would like to try this also.
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:23 AM
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I understand, thanks. What does it do, increases the front-rear flex?

Greets,
Marcel.
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:29 AM
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For the races at our club, i havo to add some weight, about 65 grams (car is 1035 grams, must be 1100 grams). Where would you put it? Is it wise to put it in the front, to add extra weight there (have understeer). Whats the best place to put the weight?

Greets,
Marcel.
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by barneveld
I understand, thanks. What does it do, increases the front-rear flex?

Greets,
Marcel.
Yes

Originally Posted by barneveld
... You said it gives push, what is that? Sorry my english is not that good.

I also saw that you have 0 degrees toe, i have toe-in now, maybe that also gives the understeer.

...
Push = understeer

Toe in shouldn't increase your understeer

Originally Posted by veecee
Thanks for the setup Inzane! Did using the offset upright calm the twitchiness down? I am going to spend some time with the car this week and I would like to try this also.
Yes - much calmer.

Originally Posted by barneveld
For the races at our club, i havo to add some weight, about 65 grams (car is 1035 grams, must be 1100 grams). Where would you put it? Is it wise to put it in the front, to add extra weight there (have understeer). Whats the best place to put the weight?
I'd say - put the weight in the rear (not the pod though). Stiffen your side to side flex (harder T-bar) and use harder front springs if the rear gets too loose
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