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Old 04-09-2009, 01:14 PM   #1
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Default (US) Rubber/Carpet: Are we ready for mod yet?

After yet another long night of practice, trying to squeeze an extra .1 out of my 13.5 with timing, and battery warming and other stupid tricks, I decided to get a little crazy, and throw an 8.5 in my car. I realize this is a far cry from open mod, but it's quite a bit faster. And to my surprise, it wasn't all that hard to control, even on our modestly-sized carpet track. In fact, as long as I was able to control the speed on the straights, the infield wasn't a whole lot different, save for a little different timing, and more braking. It was also the most fun I've had practicing in... well, forever.

So it got me to rethinking the whole lack of mod racing in the US. I used to think the main reason for this was because it's SO fast on foam tires. But now that we're finally seeing rubber take over, why are our top drivers still running these slower motors? Even on the smallish tracks in the US, surely we're good enough to tame something more powerful? If you look at lap times from IIC, the 13.5 foam cars were considerably faster than the mod rubber cars. I realize, to an extent, this isn't a great comparison, but it has to tell you something about the reaction times involved, right?

The recent LRP TCM race had 90+ entries in mod*, and 60ish in super stock. At our big races, almost NONE of our fast drivers are making the leap. I know we've beat this point to death in the past, but that was with foam tires. Are things different now with rubber? Is it time to revisit this topic?

* The TCM race was 5 cell mod, and watching the videos, the cars really didn't look all that fast. Since LiPo/6 cell isn't going away in the US, would a spec mod class over here make more sense? That is, a required minimum number of turns, like 5.5 or something. I know this isn't a popular idea in mod, but it works well enough in the other spec classes, and those currently enjoy far greater success in the states than mod.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:33 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Adam? View Post
After yet another long night of practice, trying to squeeze an extra .1 out of my 13.5 with timing, and battery warming and other stupid tricks, I decided to get a little crazy, and throw an 8.5 in my car. I realize this is a far cry from open mod, but it's quite a bit faster. And to my surprise, it wasn't all that hard to control, even on our modestly-sized carpet track. In fact, as long as I was able to control the speed on the straights, the infield wasn't a whole lot different, save for a little different timing, and more braking. It was also the most fun I've had practicing in... well, forever.

So it got me to rethinking the whole lack of mod racing in the US. I used to think the main reason for this was because it's SO fast on foam tires. But now that we're finally seeing rubber take over, why are our top drivers still running these slower motors? Even on the smallish tracks in the US, surely we're good enough to tame something more powerful? If you look at lap times from IIC, the 13.5 foam cars were considerably faster than the mod rubber cars. I realize, to an extent, this isn't a great comparison, but it has to tell you something about the reaction times involved, right?

The recent LRP TCM race had 90+ entries in mod*, and 60ish in super stock. At our big races, almost NONE of our fast drivers are making the leap. I know we've beat this point to death in the past, but that was with foam tires. Are things different now with rubber? Is it time to revisit this topic?

* The TCM race was 5 cell mod, and watching the videos, the cars really didn't look all that fast. Since LiPo/6 cell isn't going away in the US, would a spec mod class over here make more sense? That is, a required minimum number of turns, like 5.5 or something. I know this isn't a popular idea in mod, but it works well enough in the other spec classes, and those currently enjoy far greater success in the states than mod.

I personally would really like to see all of those fully sponsored drivers take the leap up to mod. I mean watching factory drivers in a 17.5 class seems kinda silly to me. That would be like pro golfers playing from the ladies tees on a golf course.

I really enjoy mod racing but do not get very many chances to run it. When I go to big races the mod class is pretty much for pro level drivers all 10 of them that choose to run it. I ran 10.5 rubber which was the fastest rubber class at Snowbirds, and although I got beat into submission I really had a great time in that class. At a club level not many people want to run mod.

Running with faster an better drivers will always push to make you better. Running faster motors will also help you to make your car setup better. I think there is a lot to learn running faster motors at least for me...
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:37 PM   #3
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I dont think there are any "factory team" (or paid) guys in any stock class. Guys with sponsorships on teams but no factory guys.

I have to ask though, is the lack of a popular mod class in the US really hurting the hobby? Or said another way, would we have more racers with changes to the mod class? I would argue probably not.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:56 PM   #4
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The drivers that don't understand why there aren't more sponsored drivers racing mod usually don't race mod themselves, and don't understand the level of preparation that goes with keeping a machine that can compete in mod at the top level. Those that don't question it either are in the hobby to have fun and could care less, or are drivers that are trying to achieve mastery over the spec levels.

The idea of forcing people to leave the slower spec classes because of a win will not do these racers any favors if they do not have the sponsorship to race these machines at the top level. The components that make up our cars wear at exponentially faster rate the harder they are pushed. Nor will it entice other drivers to want to compete at the open modified levels.

It is fun to strap in a hot motor once in a while to see if you can hold onto the car. It is a whole other story to be able to compete on a regular basis at that level.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:57 PM   #5
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At our club its less than half a dozen guys that are willing to run mod. The rest would have no fun since you most likely WILL break when hitting any boards, unlike 13.5 and higher. That said, I love mod, because as mentioned above, your car setup has to be better. On top of that, I will gain more track time, experience, and hopefully my reaction time to "holes" lowers so that I can better pass.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
I dont think there are any "factory team" (or paid) guys in any stock class. Guys with sponsorships on teams but no factory guys.

I have to ask though, is the lack of a popular mod class in the US really hurting the hobby? Or said another way, would we have more racers with changes to the mod class? I would argue probably not.
I think if more guys moved up the ladder, there would be more room at the bottom for others.

Adam? said his 8.5 is a far cry for mod. Actually it is exactly the same as mod. That is what mod is - a class with no motor limit where a guy can choose the exact motor he wants to use. Someone like Lemieux might run a 3.5. I would rather run a 4.0, someone else might be most comfortable with a 8.5. Just because a driver decised to run mod doesnt' mean he has to go straight from 13.5 to a 3.5.

Sure there are factory guys running in stock class. These are guys who don't pay for any of their parts. Sure they are not getting paid but if they are good enough for a company to use to promote their product then in my mind they are factory drivers.

Rubber tires are more consistent than ever and on carpet are a great way to slow the cars down. Although the whole Worrd GT body thread makes me wonder if dirver are going to be satisfied giving up lap speed and handling.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:05 PM   #7
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I honestly love running mod, but at the club level its not very practical for most people. My biggest gripe about running mod/rubber on carpet is tires. They don't drop off nearly as fast in 13.5 and slower classes. A lot of times, we will run 10.5 as a... toned down mod. That isn't quite so hard on tires, so it's a little more economical.

But tire wear will also come down to driver skill and setup. So Over time, the more we run it, the better people will get at setup/driving. Then we won't have that issue as much anymore.

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Old 04-09-2009, 02:06 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
I dont think there are any "factory team" (or paid) guys in any stock class. Guys with sponsorships on teams but no factory guys.

I have to ask though, is the lack of a popular mod class in the US really hurting the hobby? Or said another way, would we have more racers with changes to the mod class? I would argue probably not.
I'm pretty certain more than one team in the US pays its drivers bonuses if they make the "A" at a big race, and more if they win. I wonder if that's a contributing factor.

Anyway, I'm not implying that anybody in particular should step up. I'm just wondering why almost nobody has stepped up, and if now's the time, since rubber tire seems to make it more accessible.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
I dont think there are any "factory team" (or paid) guys in any stock class. Guys with sponsorships on teams but no factory guys.

I have to ask though, is the lack of a popular mod class in the US really hurting the hobby? Or said another way, would we have more racers with changes to the mod class? I would argue probably not.
There are many sponsored and factory drivers running stock. Some of those driver ONLY run stock. Many of the A main drivers in 17.5 Rubber at Snowbirds did not run 10.5 Rubber tire. Doesn't that seem odd to anyone else?

I think factory drivers (100% sponsorship or better) running in stock or super stock classes is hurting the fun of big races.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:10 PM   #10
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How many "factory" guys do we have in the slower classes in the US that are paying 100% for the parts? How many don't pay anything? I understand car prep is more rigorous, but it's not like we don't all buy new cars for big races anyway. I don't buy that the 13.5 rubber guys are any less prepared than the mod guys, those dudes take it as seriously as anybody. And as for parts wearing out, where was that argument when 27T foam with NiMH was king? Talk about parts, and wearing things out. It's easier now than ever.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:12 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by timmay70 View Post
The drivers that don't understand why there aren't more sponsored drivers racing mod usually don't race mod themselves, and don't understand the level of preparation that goes with keeping a machine that can compete in mod at the top level. Those that don't question it either are in the hobby to have fun and could care less, or are drivers that are trying to achieve mastery over the spec levels.

The idea of forcing people to leave the slower spec classes because of a win will not do these racers any favors if they do not have the sponsorship to race these machines at the top level. The components that make up our cars wear at exponentially faster rate the harder they are pushed. Nor will it entice other drivers to want to compete at the open modified levels.

It is fun to strap in a hot motor once in a while to see if you can hold onto the car. It is a whole other story to be able to compete on a regular basis at that level.



i love this hobby...as for sponsored drivers in stock..well thats a whole big can of worms..you say trying to achieve mastery of spec classes...well when you see the same 3 -5 guys in every spec class in the top spots...you have to look at it both ways...i see both points, but my prefference would be to have them move up..i think the new 17.5(stock) per roar rules should be for unspnsored drivers of any type..the new 13.5 super stock have at it..just my 2 cents...this discussion has been brought up a thousand or more times...but until there are rules to inforce them..what can you do..
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:19 PM   #12
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But should it really just be about rules? Shouldn't we as drivers want to man up as we improve, and move on to the next great challenge?

What are they doing in Europe that's different? Most of those guys aren't paid pros, and there's a LOT more of them attempting mod.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:35 PM   #13
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Agreed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam? View Post
After yet another long night of practice, trying to squeeze an extra .1 out of my 13.5 with timing, and battery warming and other stupid tricks, I decided to get a little crazy, and throw an 8.5 in my car. I realize this is a far cry from open mod, but it's quite a bit faster. And to my surprise, it wasn't all that hard to control, even on our modestly-sized carpet track. In fact, as long as I was able to control the speed on the straights, the infield wasn't a whole lot different, save for a little different timing, and more braking. It was also the most fun I've had practicing in... well, forever.

So it got me to rethinking the whole lack of mod racing in the US. I used to think the main reason for this was because it's SO fast on foam tires. But now that we're finally seeing rubber take over, why are our top drivers still running these slower motors? Even on the smallish tracks in the US, surely we're good enough to tame something more powerful? If you look at lap times from IIC, the 13.5 foam cars were considerably faster than the mod rubber cars. I realize, to an extent, this isn't a great comparison, but it has to tell you something about the reaction times involved, right?

The recent LRP TCM race had 90+ entries in mod*, and 60ish in super stock. At our big races, almost NONE of our fast drivers are making the leap. I know we've beat this point to death in the past, but that was with foam tires. Are things different now with rubber? Is it time to revisit this topic?

* The TCM race was 5 cell mod, and watching the videos, the cars really didn't look all that fast. Since LiPo/6 cell isn't going away in the US, would a spec mod class over here make more sense? That is, a required minimum number of turns, like 5.5 or something. I know this isn't a popular idea in mod, but it works well enough in the other spec classes, and those currently enjoy far greater success in the states than mod.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:10 PM   #14
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But should it really just be about rules? Shouldn't we as drivers want to man up as we improve, and move on to the next great challenge?

What are they doing in Europe that's different? Most of those guys aren't paid pros, and there's a LOT more of them attempting mod.
I race with a few of the national A-main stock guys. (I think we have 5 different in the last year from the two electric on-road ROAR races). Just to play devils advocate here. Locally we want to race with those guys, because as pointed out, we want to race with the best. It makes us all better drivers. In order for these guys to race in mod and compete they would have to constantly practice mod. So what would happen locally is the following:

- Those guys race in a class by themselves and we dont get to race against them and improve
- We all join them in mod, get fed up with the expense and frustration and quit

Of the 5 guys above I know 3 of them don't travel to races a whole lot. Should they be focused on their national reputation or the building of local talent? I don't know the right answer but like I said just playing devil's advocate. This seems like a question no matter how much debated will never get solved. Can't make everyone happy.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:18 PM   #15
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I will also mention that at some tracks there is not enough traction or a smooth enough surface to allow a mod car to make it around the track efficiently.
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