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Old 04-05-2009, 08:33 PM   #16
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Also, the battery doesn't need to fully charge in 5 seconds. You only get 6 seconds a lap of use. I doubt that 6 seconds is fully draining the battery. All the brake regeneration has to do is keep the battery topped off.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:34 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Stuart Pid View Post
Formula 1 should not be a "spec" class.
Slowerone, guess you don't know much about racing in the states. We race anything from lawnmowers to snowmobiles.
You do, but not in the rain...

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Also, the battery doesn't need to fully charge in 5 seconds. You only get 6 seconds a lap of use. I doubt that 6 seconds is fully draining the battery. All the brake regeneration has to do is keep the battery topped off.
Facts, please - speculation is useless...

And this is not power generated from the braking system. KERS are attached solely to the engine, using a system of clutches and toroidal gearboxes to take power from the engine on the overrun, and feed it back when the driver pushes the button. HTH
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:15 AM   #18
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what capacity are the cells?

Maybe they need some team matched ones, with uber high voltage and runtime
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:54 AM   #19
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before technology was reigned in on the F1's the drivers were earmarked as human crash fodder... if left to the tech boffins F1's would indeed be RC cars where the driver pushed a green button at the start and a red one at the end as a courtesy to the "human factor". Spectators would be given special buffering delay googles so they can watch the cars go past in slo-mo, from behind blast proof barriers...

look at group 1 drag racing now in the USA, 1000ft of lame

i love the idea of KERS, it actually provides some way for racing to be interesting and allow a driver to strategically attack rather than slowly fall off the pace tenth by tenth, its always been a cool feature of the indy/champ cars although implemented differently.

I believe the KERS "batteries" are actually capacitor arrays or if not right now they will be in future. Be interesting to know the voltages involved, probably more than enough to light the griswolds christmas tree

http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/mut/mut142.html
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Old 04-06-2009, 06:06 AM   #20
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i love the idea of KERS, it actually provides some way for racing to be interesting and allow a driver to strategically attack rather than slowly fall off the pace tenth by tenth, its always been a cool feature of the indy/champ cars
although implemented differently.



Anyone who saw the Barrichelo vs Alonso battle (won by Barrichelo in 2 laps) saw how a skillful driver can use KERS to battle a superior car. I love it.
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:35 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
You do, but not in the rain...

Facts, please - speculation is useless...

And this is not power generated from the braking system. KERS are attached solely to the engine, using a system of clutches and toroidal gearboxes to take power from the engine on the overrun, and feed it back when the driver pushes the button. HTH
What am I speculating about? It's a FACT that the FIA only allows six seconds per lap of kers use.

Ok, here are some facts. It doesn't take power from the engine, it gets it THROUGH the engine FROM the rear tires. The motor/generator is attached directly to the crankshaft but has very little drag (freewheeling) under power. The moment the driver touches the BRAKE pedal, a connection is made to the charging system for the batteries. This does two things. It increases the drag on the crankshaft which increases the engine braking effect and generates electrical power to charge the system. The power to do all this comes from the momentum of the car and the turning of the rear tires. This works essentially the same way as regenerative braking on our RC speed controls.

If the car was sitting still and the driver revved the engine in neutral, then stood on the brakes, the engine rpm would drop very quickly and very little electrical power would be produced.
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:22 AM   #22
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Some additional FACTS. With the possible exception of Williams who are using a different system than the Magneti Marrelli system the others are using, there are no clutches or torioidal gearboxes involved. The motor/generator is attached directly to the front of the crankshaft. Williams are using some sort of magnetically enhanced flywheel system that may use some sort of clutch and gearing system. I'm not real familiar with it.

By your theory, if the system gets its power from the engine then it could not charge if the engine wasn't running right? Well, imagine this scenario:

Take a complete and fully functional F1 car but remove the pistons, rods, cylinder heads, etc so that all you are left with is the block and crank with kers attached. Now tow this car up to speed (with it in gear of course) and realease the tow cable. Despite the fact that no power is coming from the engine, as soon as the driver hits the brakes it WILL CHARGE from the momentum of the car. This momentum is transferred from the rear tires through the halfshafts, gearbox, crankshaft and straight into the generator.

Don't let the fact that the motor/generator is attached straight to the car's engine blind you to the fact the power comes from the car's momentum.
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:25 AM   #23
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Are you from America? The land where they don't race anything in the rain... at all... ever? And footballers play in the cold, wet, hail, snow, ...

Guessing that you were taking the p**s about them racing in the rain, you are not alone in thinking that a return to no-holds-barred technical rules might be no bad thing. However, that isn't what Mercedes, Toyota, Ferrari, BMW and Renault want in order to be seen to relate to the real world.

Still, there's always the 'off' button on the TV...
Actually i'm from England.. where the footballers are a bunch of overpaid girls who get within 10ft of another player and go down screaming because he breathed on his new hair do.

yes there is always the off button, but I quite enjoy formula one (except for when I see KERS being used.. how gay) espically now Jenson Button looks to be getting off to a good start.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
Some additional FACTS. With the possible exception of Williams who are using a different system than the Magneti Marrelli system the others are using, there are no clutches or torioidal gearboxes involved. The motor/generator is attached directly to the front of the crankshaft. Williams are using some sort of magnetically enhanced flywheel system that may use some sort of clutch and gearing system. I'm not real familiar with it.

By your theory, if the system gets its power from the engine then it could not charge if the engine wasn't running right? Well, imagine this scenario:

Take a complete and fully functional F1 car but remove the pistons, rods, cylinder heads, etc so that all you are left with is the block and crank with kers attached. Now tow this car up to speed (with it in gear of course) and realease the tow cable. Despite the fact that no power is coming from the engine, as soon as the driver hits the brakes it WILL CHARGE from the momentum of the car. This momentum is transferred from the rear tires through the halfshafts, gearbox, crankshaft and straight into the generator.

Don't let the fact that the motor/generator is attached straight to the car's engine blind you to the fact the power comes from the car's momentum.
The Williams Flybrid is basically combining the Motor/generator within the flywheel casing. For a good description, have a look here

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...explained.html

This system is very similar to our brushless motors.... especially in generator mode (power being supplied to turn the rotor).

Basically, they still have a power unit attached to the engine, and use a similar control system to the batterys. However, instead of storing the power as electrical energy, they start they fly-wheel spining (think of it as charging the battery).
When charged, the power is cut, but because of the vacuum, the flywheel/rotor keeps spining at a high RPM... the energy is stored.

Then when the KERS button is pushed, the flywheel switches to motor mode, and because of the magnets embeded in the flywheel/rotor, it generates a current to power the motor attached to the engine... there's your 80hp boost

Pretty simple really, and when the rules start to open up KERS usage (bigger power boost for longer), it could start to come into it's own, as quite simply the battery technology would have to get bigger and heavier to cope... I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be using up all the stored energy in the flywheel for 6.6seconds per lap. And the other advantage is that it's a bit easier to locate in the chassis than the batteries, so less compromise on the chassis dynamics.

Now the MLC in that certainly could have some positive implications for future brushless motor designs... 100k+ RPM!

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Old 04-06-2009, 02:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by cheROK1212 View Post
i love the idea of KERS, it actually provides some way for racing to be interesting and allow a driver to strategically attack rather than slowly fall off the pace tenth by tenth, its always been a cool feature of the indy/champ cars
although implemented differently.



Anyone who saw the Barrichelo vs Alonso battle (won by Barrichelo in 2 laps) saw how a skillful driver can use KERS to battle a superior car. I love it.
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Actually i'm from England.. where the footballers are a bunch of overpaid girls who get within 10ft of another player and go down screaming because he breathed on his new hair do.

yes there is always the off button, but I quite enjoy formula one (except for when I see KERS being used.. how gay) espically now Jenson Button looks to be getting off to a good start.
Brawn GP is not using KERS yet.
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Old 04-06-2009, 03:13 PM   #26
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Good info there Tryhard. I had only seen tidbits of info on the Williams system so I wasn't sure what they were using.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:20 PM   #27
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Brawn GP is not using KERS yet.
I know.

I never said they did
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:06 PM   #28
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here is a visual for the F1 rules and KERS....

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...id=10497901001

Wonder how they negate the gyroscopic effect if they use a fly wheel type of KERS? Or is it even an issue?
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Priest View Post
KERS is really gay!

May as well just give them another 80 horse power.. infact if F1 is supposed to be the most technologically advanced form of motorsport on the planet then I say.

Give them back:
Turbo's
V10/V12 Engines
All aero dynamic aids
Skirts
Fans
Electronics
CVT Gearboxes
2 meter wide cars not this pissy 1.8 meter

Just basically really push the car to it's limits and actually make it interesting... I mean they couldn't even race in the rain today.. what are these people.. race drivers or fanny footballers?

With the exception of electronics and maybe gearbox... Your list will not improve technology... It isn't hard to make power with turbo or going with a v12 engine. Allowing open Aero will also hinder technology along with making the cars wider... Putting restrictions is what brings out inovations....
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:28 PM   #30
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a good example i saw was Lewis Hamilton, he was clearly slower than the car in front by a decent amount. On the back straight KERS gave him almost enough to make a passing move into the slow right hander, if he was a tenth or two faster he probably would have passed. Sure he would be defedning like mad for half of every lap but without KERS he would have dropped at least half a second per lap.

another interesting use is to compromise gearbox ratios and use KERS to cover it out of slower corners. Again, Hamilton was just blipping the KERS out of a couple of corners in Melbourne. This could prove really useful at tracks like Monaco, where passing has almost become a miracle.

at least we got slick tires back!! (at the sacrifice of a rear wing that looks terrible).
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