R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-17-2003, 01:14 PM   #106
Tech Master
 
DerekB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,421
Default Re: legality

I hate to bring this up, but the Stock Class isn't defined by a 27-turn motor. At the time the only motor that was around for the basis was the Mabuchi 540 which had 27-turns. As we keep stressing the limits of the 27-turn 30 year old technology to get more power I have to question at what point does it stop and a new "stock" motor get to be born. The idea of stock was to make everybody run the same motor. It's not a spec class, in fact I think you spend more in stock than any other. One of the pluses of Nitro is that there it too much power so nobody really has an advantage.

Personally I think the 19-turn class should be allowed, it's better. there's more power. I can't even understand at this point how bearings aren't legal in stock. Bearing aren't more expensive than the motors anymore. Lets get out of the dark ages...and if this means breaking some old rule....BREAK IT!
DerekB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 01:18 PM   #107
Tech Regular
 
Intermision's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 338
Send a message via AIM to Intermision Send a message via Yahoo to Intermision
Default

At the track I race at the stock class pretty much died within a few weeks of its creation. People would rather race 19t spec because it's faster and is pretty much the same price as stock.
Intermision is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 01:30 PM   #108
Tech Champion
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Madjack, the BS Motors (I love that's the nickname they've gotten, it's hilarious!) have a lot more RPM then a Monster but less power too...My power numbers on a BS is about 80% of what I was getting with my Monster. I'd say gear it like an RR if you've run one.

Derek, to a point you are right. People do spend more money in stock, to a point. People buying 6 motors just to find one or two magicically fast ones. Batteries are more important in stock too. If you want to go faster in mod, advance the timing or put a hotter wind in. There is a 19t class already established, but it doesn't have the popluarity in most area as the 27T does. Why? I don't know if anyone has that answer. People argue that if ROAR makes the Binary legal, it will instantly make every other stock motor obsolete. My answer is so what? Didn't the Paradox do that with the ability to be opened and rebuilt?Didn't the Slot Machine 2 do that when it debuted with laydown brushes? The more I run the Binary, the more I like it. I don't think 27 turn stock should be eliminated though. For beginners it's a great class. Beginners don't need a super motor, they need to learn to drive. A faster motor just means they'll hit stuff harder, break more parts, become discouraged quicker and leave the hobby. But then again, I still race in classes that use Mabuchi motors....
__________________
Site Content Specialist- Surface
HorizonHobby.Com

Horizon Hobby is on YouTube with hundreds of different videos! Visit us at
http://www.youtube.com/HorizonRCdotCom
RCGaryK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 03:28 PM   #109
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 146
Default

DerekB:

I think the last thing the world needs is faster stock motors. Ok..... I was wrong. The last thing the world needs is even more classes to race in. Faster stock motors is a close second, though. It seems like some people want to keep adding classes until they can bring home a trophy. It's waaay out of hand. Maybe if I lived somewhere that had really huge turnouts for most races I'd feel different, but I'm used to 20-50 (at best) people for a club race. If there are more than 2-3 classes, the racing sucks!! No close racing, etc...

19turn is JUST like stock racing except you get put in the wall faster. They're inconsistant, just like stock motors. They need to be rebuilt even more frequently (not much, though). This is the machine wound, locked timing variety.

I agree with what you said about nitro, and it also is completely true for mod, as well. I really wish stock was more of a novice class, and people would just then move up to mod when they felt stock was no longer fast enough.
Bodido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 03:52 PM   #110
Tech Master
 
DerekB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,421
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Bodido
DerekB:

I think the last thing the world needs is faster stock motors. Ok..... I was wrong. The last thing the world needs is even more classes to race in. Faster stock motors is a close second, though. It seems like some people want to keep adding classes until they can bring home a trophy. It's waaay out of hand. Maybe if I lived somewhere that had really huge turnouts for most races I'd feel different, but I'm used to 20-50 (at best) people for a club race. If there are more than 2-3 classes, the racing sucks!! No close racing, etc...

19turn is JUST like stock racing except you get put in the wall faster. They're inconsistant, just like stock motors. They need to be rebuilt even more frequently (not much, though). This is the machine wound, locked timing variety.

I agree with what you said about nitro, and it also is completely true for mod, as well. I really wish stock was more of a novice class, and people would just then move up to mod when they felt stock was no longer fast enough.
Why do we all assume that people don't know how to drive? When I started racing I was pretty comfortable behind the wheel. After Driving my Falcon, Big Brute, and other cars at the 540 speed I bought a faster motor and from driving around the street I knew how to drive. When I got to the track I ran stock with my red 1200s. Not soon after I wanted to go faster wround the track and I bought a mod motor at the time 17-turn was "hot" I raced that (still with no problems).

I didn't like stock anymore because of the slowe speed and having to have a motor that was good. At that point it wasn't my driving it was the motor. Now we hve better batteries better cars better ESC, better charges and yet we still use the same technology? With BUSHINGS? how about we get some bearings at least in stock motors. The cost shouldn't change, and since bearings are in $20 motors.

So as each stock motor comes out the first thing you ask is how fast is it. Why don't we ask how slow it is? the reason why most of us race is to go fast. I don't watch electric golf carts race at 10mph, I watch F1 at 190mph, because of the speed. We have a SPEED Channel, not a I want to go slow so some body doesn't crash channel.

Speed is an evoloutionary process, back when we ran 1200s we had to worry about dumping, that's the main reason why stock isn't a diferent motor. If you are worried about cost, then a SPEC class is what you need, but I can say that if there was a choice I think ore people will take the faster 19-turn (hopefully with bearings) class. But I guess we'll all complain that a stock motor (which in all respects is still stock except for a 2mm gap in magnets) which may or maynot be faster should be illegal, despite all of us asking if it's faster, when there is a cheaper way to go faster...hell why brushless isn't legal is baffeling to me too.

And fast cars is NOT a reason for low turnouts at races. If it were we'd be drving 380 motors again. What we need is a more organized nationwide system to allow beginners a place to learn and moveup over time...where's that rcnation link?
DerekB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 04:05 PM   #111
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 547
Default

all I know is that I very much enjoyed running the new binary in Cleveland and am very happy that our local track is allowing them for stock.

I know that everyone likes to bash Trinity/EPIC, but this is a fun motor to run for us folks who don't want to run mod.
barrys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 04:12 PM   #112
Tech Master
 
DerekB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,421
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by barrys
all I know is that I very much enjoyed running the new binary in Cleveland and am very happy that our local track is allowing them for stock.

I know that everyone likes to bash Trinity/EPIC, but this is a fun motor to run for us folks who don't want to run mod.


What there needs to be is a class in between modified and stock. What I will agree with is that it's difficult to step up to mod from stock. I don't know too many that can do that effectively, so it forces many to stick with the slow class and find ways to go faster.
DerekB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 04:32 PM   #113
Tech Master
 
madjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Orange County
Posts: 1,769
Trader Rating: 20 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to madjack
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
What there needs to be is a class in between modified and stock. What I will agree with is that it's difficult to step up to mod from stock. I don't know too many that can do that effectively, so it forces many to stick with the slow class and find ways to go faster.
Derek,

I think we have seen Japan adopt the 23t class with open arms ( 8 min Champs.) I have had an opportunity to run some of those motors and have found that there are several that are surprising fast...

It would be grand to see some of that 23T class momentum land stateside. But be warned...they even more demanding when tuning the 23's

what is the saying we hear all too offten

"how fast can I go?"

"How much money do you want to spend?"
madjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 04:35 PM   #114
Tech Elite
 
Brian McGreevy's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,081
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Brian McGreevy Send a message via Yahoo to Brian McGreevy
Default Re: legality

Quote:
Originally posted by CypressMidWest
I can say however that the stockers I ran at Cleveland were THE FASTEST stock motors I've ever strapped in my cars.
Ian, I got mine decently fast at Cleveland; comparable with my monsters. After things learned this past weekend, I can definitely say the Binary (at least the one I ran) has been the fastest stock ever put in my car as well. I have found that the same brush/spring setup won't necessarily work for each motor. I have 4 Binarys and they all like different setup to run at about the same level. For those of you trying to get some power out of these motors, keep playing around and don't forget to gear them LOW...seems the shorter you go on gear (within reason) the faster they get.
__________________
USVTA Member #211

Support Formula SAE - get kids into engineering!
http://motorsports.illinois.edu/
Brian McGreevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 04:35 PM   #115
Tech Elite
 
nashrcracer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: LA - Lower Antioch
Posts: 4,911
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

though this was the binary stock thread not the BS thread. o wait that's one and the same. just to add fuel to the fire we have a 19t class at one of the tracks I run at. the top three or 4 guys figured out how to run 40 to 44 degress of timing and put laydown brushes on the standup endbells. the motor smokes some mod winds and will shut off a turbo35 at 2 volts. but defeats the purpose of the class. something that doesn't allow you to hit the wall like a 8 double. and everybody has to run the same thing. if you have open rules then chaos is the rule. set rules on what you can do or just don't worry about it.

now back to the BS. I was called out at one of the tracks I run at and asked was I going to run the BS or "cheat" and run the faster MS. I haven't decided what to tell the dude yet other then I will run what's allowed to win!
__________________
RC50 As you come into this world, something else is also born. You begin your life, and it begins a journey towards you. It moves slowly, but it never stops. Wherever you go, whatever path you take, it will follow never faster, never slower, always coming. You will run, it will walk. You will rest, it will not. One day, you will linger in the same place too long you will sit too still, or sleep too deep. And when, too late, you rise to go, you will notice a second shadow next to yours. Your life will then be over.
nashrcracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 04:45 PM   #116
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 146
Default

I don't assume people don't know how to drive at all. But you have to admit that you've been involved in the hobby for many years now. Of course a stock motor feels slow to you. But they're really not that slow these days. You learned on much slower equipment than what people are learning on now.

I honestly believe the jump to mod class is over-rated. Unless you're trying to do it before you can put in a clean run in stock, it's not as big a deal as people make it out to be. Especially not off-road. I just don't see a need for more classes.

I think that 90% of the people racing stock don't want faster stock motors in general. They just want one faster than the guy that just outqualified them. They're just hoping for an edge over their fellow racers.
Bodido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 04:48 PM   #117
Tech Elite
 
DaveW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 2,964
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

I concur...

- Dave
__________________
...you better run like im booger flickin...
DaveW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 05:58 PM   #118
Tech Master
 
madjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Orange County
Posts: 1,769
Trader Rating: 20 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to madjack
BS gearing

Soooo...can anyone provide an example of the ration increase when comparing a Monster and the BS...please

Touring car:

Monster 96/35 x 2.6 = 7.13 final drive (standard ratio)

Binary 96/32 x 2.6 = 7.8????? or do I need to increase the final ratio to more than 7.8????

Thanks in advance,

JC
madjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 06:22 PM   #119
Tech Elite
 
Brian McGreevy's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,081
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Brian McGreevy Send a message via Yahoo to Brian McGreevy
Default

All I know is I went from a ~.98" rollout to a .845" rollout when going from a monster to a Binary. This is a Warpspeed Demon (TC3) with 59 mm tires. It had more mid-range and top-end than a monster and about the same pop off the corner...and was consistantly fast for all 5 mins

So...

100/34 with a Monster

100/29 with a Binary.
__________________
USVTA Member #211

Support Formula SAE - get kids into engineering!
http://motorsports.illinois.edu/
Brian McGreevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2003, 06:42 PM   #120
Tech Champion
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Ok, I went from a 128/31*1.81= 7.47 to a 128/27*1.81=8.58

In the second round I ran a 128/28 and the comm temp (not can temp) was 192! I recut the arm and tossed in new brushes and it ran ok, but it wasn't as fast as earlier. I think the heat may have damaged it, but we'll see for sure next week. Even so, I still managed to finish 3rd
__________________
Site Content Specialist- Surface
HorizonHobby.Com

Horizon Hobby is on YouTube with hundreds of different videos! Visit us at
http://www.youtube.com/HorizonRCdotCom
RCGaryK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
12 used fantom monster & fantom binary balanced stock motors 2 epic roar stock brand jason cheng R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 11 06-06-2005 08:23 AM
wtb epic binary stock motor crACkeD ChaSsiS R/C Items: Wanted to Buy 1 06-16-2004 10:28 AM
Stock Motors - Monster and Binary Stock Nexus R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 3 04-25-2004 03:47 PM
EPIC Binary 2 Stock Motor nutfluff R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 8 02-23-2004 08:58 PM
EPIC Binary Stock motor rayhuang Electric On-Road 31 10-16-2003 01:12 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 02:37 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net