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Old 03-08-2009, 11:08 PM   #121
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"Though it might be an even bigger topic to tackle than the scope of this thread I would venture to say that if Europe stopped doing everything in their power to destroy pan car racing you might see more of them. Pan cars are designed to run on carpet, with traction additives and low slung highly aerodynamic bodies and they are meant to be fast. Either get with the program or don't run it, enough of this bastardization already."
Nick

This is a curious comment about Europe. Seems they have been running wide pans outdoors with 3.5 2s LIPO or six cell for quite a long time. Is that not fast. Yes they use low slung bodies and traction additive. Who says pancars are only for carpet. Where are you getting your info from. 3.5 2s LiPo in a wide pan is is my favorite game as well. 4 cell 13.5 is not intended to be fast. It is intended to be a popular indoor class.
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Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-10-2009 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:41 AM   #122
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Wow...quite a lengthy conversation here. Good sign of interest in this type of racing. Since our Ferrari 599 has been mentioned a few times, I'd like to say a few words about it.

My reason for producing the body was for the enjoyment of being involved with 1/10th pan cars on road course again. For those who know me, I've raced pan cars for 30 years now and actually produced one of the first 1/10th pan car chassis' and GTP bodies in the mid 80s. So I really wanted to have an entry in this class.

I always try to incorporate as much realism in our bodies as possible, however as it's been discused already, the proportions of our 1/10th pan cars don't match up to the full size cars. So there is always a certain amount of fudging that is necessary. Also I will admit that I take some license on some of the shapes simply because I know that's what I will have to compete with from other manufacturers. I will also admit that it's kind of fun to do that, since some of the RC manufacturers actually make the shapes better looking than the full size cars. It sort of gives us a chance to exercise our design skills as well as our modeling skills. Rest assured we are only trying to produce what we think is a better product for the racers. Of course you can't please all of the people, all of the time.

I certainly appeciate anybody giving our bodies a look, and maybe giving them a try. I'd be the first to try this class if our local racing program decides to try it.

By the way, I've tried to find someone involved in the rule making for World GT, and have sent emails from the info on the website but have gotten no response. If anybody has a contact I'd appreciate any info. I doubt if the Ferrari is on the approved list since I haven't found anybody to talk to.

Thanks,
Hope all the issues get resolved and the class grows.

Gary McAllister
McAllister Racing
Thanks for jumping in! I just finally tossed my old McAllister T-bird stock car body from the late 80's. How are you with new F103 bodies?? and wings The Ferrari looks nice.
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Old 03-09-2009, 08:43 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
"Though it might be an even bigger topic to tackle than the scope of this thread I would venture to say that if Europe stopped doing everything in their power to destroy pan car racing you might see more of them. Pan cars are designed to run on carpet, with traction additives and low slung highly aerodynamic bodies and they are meant to be fast. Either get with the program or don't run it, enough of this bastardization already."
Nick

This is a curious comment about Europe. Seems they have been running wide pans outdoors with 3.5 2s LIPO or six cell for quite a long time. Is that not fast. Yes they use low slung bodies and traction additive. Who says pancars are only for carpet. Where are you getting your info from. 3.5 2s LiPo in a wide pan is is my favorite game as well. 4 cell 13.5 is not intended to be fast. It is intended to be popular indoor class.
John
You know, now that I give this more though about the low slung bodies and whatnot, why not just move to the LMP coupe cars such as the following:

http://www.prolineracing.com/p-591-mulsanne-lmp.aspx

http://www.prolineracing.com/p-587-p905b.aspx

http://www.prolineracing.com/p-332-speed-12.aspx (10th scale version)

They are not real cars so we can assume they are front engine rear wheel drive and be done with it. Plus the bodies look interesting enough to not care if they are real or not.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:17 AM   #124
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You know, now that I give this more though about the low slung bodies and whatnot, why not just move to the LMP coupe cars such as the following:

http://www.prolineracing.com/p-591-mulsanne-lmp.aspx

http://www.prolineracing.com/p-587-p905b.aspx

http://www.prolineracing.com/p-332-speed-12.aspx (10th scale version)

They are not real cars so we can assume they are front engine rear wheel drive and be done with it. Plus the bodies look interesting enough to not care if they are real or not.
Silly Devil's Advocate.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:43 AM   #125
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Interesting thread, and i'm still catching up with the posts, but this is my UK GT3 spec car:





As you can see, an HPI Honda NSX, and a Calandra running 7.4v LiPo and an HPI Saturn 20T motor (#1136) (ok I had a Tamiya Sports Tuned in it when I took the picture).
This set up is just a little slower in straight line speed than a 4-cell 10.5, which is the UK GT2 rules.
A few of us are now looking to testing 10.5 with a 3.7v LiPo, as we are haters of NiCd/NiMh cells.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:48 AM   #126
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Those NSXs do look nice indeed. Good luck!
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:08 AM   #127
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OK I have now caught up on this thread, and am very disappointed in another case of Anti-Europe talk, to which I can never understand (maybe I'm too English?).
as for the recognision of bodies, I would recognise the Aston Martin, and the close resemblance Jaguar cars any day, where as I may confuse a Corvette with many of the kit Cars we have here (like the Darrian), and how can you say the Lotus looks nothing like the original? it is probably the closest you will ever get to an original.

Rant over

Anyway, we here in ENGLAND race outdoors on purpose made Tarmac circuits, we started of using shells like the Active Hobby Porsche 956 and Toyota GT-one but are now moving over to the more conventional road car design as it has less drag for our 155ft main straight, and i actually went a lap faster using the Honda than I did with the Porsche simply as i was able to gear the car up after reducing the drag (dropped from 100T spur to a 90T spur, same 28T pinion).

Personally I would like to see the body shell rules changed to the ones used by Large Scale racers, where it says that dimensions are to be within 10% of the original car, although that may be a little tricky with the wheelbase length?

As for the Parma cheese wedge, oops!! i mean the DB9, it looks nothing like the real thing, where as the corvette looks like the car used in the FIA GT series.

Maybe Parma should relaunch the Panoz, but this time in 200mm, cos that has a long long nose on it.

McAllister Racing
you are not known of in the UK, but i would like to know more of that Ferrari as it is the first I have seen of it.

I raced with Skiddins yesterday (on his local track), and his Nitro Kyosho shell (pictured in his post) certainly had more downforce than my HPI shell, but then his rear wing was twice the size of mine, so that has me thinking of using an after market larger rear wing.

and YES, I RACE OUTDOORS ON TARMAC
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:15 AM   #128
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Very nice work on the NSX body. Kudos!

I look at your chassis and I see there is no antenna wire from your receiver???

Also, I have a 17.5 Tekin Redline motor in my LiPo Pan Car. It is FAASSSTTTT!!! And surprisingly, it works great in our indoor track. I think the LiPo 17.5 combo will work great for Pan Cars. And I was not that much faster than the 13.5 NiMH guy at my track either.
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:18 AM   #129
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It sounds like most of the people who want to run the doorstop bodies are the same ones who just want to go fast...so run Pro-10. The rest want to look good but don't mind going slow, so run WGT...a 13.5 4-cell pancar isn't fast enough to need all that downforce anyway. Why is this even a discussion?

-rocky b
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:32 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by flatspunout View Post
It sounds like most of the people who want to run the doorstop bodies are the same ones who just want to go fast...so run Pro-10. The rest want to look good but don't mind going slow, so run WGT...a 13.5 4-cell pancar isn't fast enough to need all that downforce anyway. Why is this even a discussion?

-rocky b
Couldn't have said it better.

I am even thinking 10.5 with 3.7v LiPo

we found that with more power the cars were very hard to apply the power, and the class vertually died, but moving to a sealed can 20T motor has got us a regular 8 entries, with one meeting of 14 entries.

Also Saturn 20T best race time is 19:306
where as an 8.5 Brushless best was 18:302
Do i need say more?
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:35 AM   #131
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Very nice work on the NSX body. Kudos!

I look at your chassis and I see there is no antenna wire from your receiver???

Also, I have a 17.5 Tekin Redline motor in my LiPo Pan Car. It is FAASSSTTTT!!! And surprisingly, it works great in our indoor track. I think the LiPo 17.5 combo will work great for Pan Cars. And I was not that much faster than the 13.5 NiMH guy at my track either.
Note cable tie round battery post?
that is the 4" aerial mast (in black so hard to see)
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:47 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by flatspunout View Post
It sounds like most of the people who want to run the doorstop bodies are the same ones who just want to go fast...so run Pro-10. The rest want to look good but don't mind going slow, so run WGT...a 13.5 4-cell pancar isn't fast enough to need all that downforce anyway. Why is this even a discussion?

-rocky b
You missed the point of the discussion. World GT has body rules and an approved list of bodies. There are some who don't like those bodies and want to change the rules.

The existing WGT race bodies (the new ones) look great on the track and are certainly not as "wedgie" looking as some maintain. The downforce provided by these bodies is appropriate for the speed of the cars, which for most tracks is plenty fast. Scale bodies, realism, 10% rules and the like are fine and have their place in other classes, just not in WGT
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:15 PM   #133
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Sounds like we need a wind tunnel test and a minimum coefficient of drag rule in place.
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:18 PM   #134
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Scale bodies, realism, 10% rules and the like are fine and have their place in other classes, just not in WGT
Why should scale realism should not be a factor in World GT? I watched Mike Dumas drive the Speed merchant World GT in Omaha '08 and my impression was that scale realism was one of the main intentions of the class.

Notable ROAR World GT body rules:
1. Body must be a replica of an original, 2 door sports/gt production car or based on a full sized auto which has been raced in a major series (Speed World Challenge,FIA GT Championship, ALMS GT1 + GT2, Japanese GT Championship, etc.)
2. Bodies deemed unrealistic or out of scale will not be approved. The burden of proof lies with the manufacturer to provide documentation for submitted bodies.
3. Acceptable documentation for proof of scale realism shall be pictures of original 1:1 car from the top, front, rear and sides and or manufacturers dimensional data for production vehicle.

ROAR ignored their own rules when legalizing some bodies.
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Old 03-09-2009, 01:11 PM   #135
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Why should scale realism should not be a factor in World GT? I watched Mike Dumas drive the Speed merchant World GT in Omaha '08 and my impression was that scale realism was one of the main intentions of the class.

Notable ROAR World GT body rules:
1. Body must be a replica of an original, 2 door sports/gt production car or based on a full sized auto which has been raced in a major series (Speed World Challenge,FIA GT Championship, ALMS GT1 + GT2, Japanese GT Championship, etc.)
2. Bodies deemed unrealistic or out of scale will not be approved. The burden of proof lies with the manufacturer to provide documentation for submitted bodies.
3. Acceptable documentation for proof of scale realism shall be pictures of original 1:1 car from the top, front, rear and sides and or manufacturers dimensional data for production vehicle.

ROAR ignored their own rules when legalizing some bodies.
I saw the same Dumas demo drive and did not come away with the same impression as you. I thought that scale realism was supposed to be a factor but not the driving force behind the class.

I think there is a lot of wiggle room in the ROAR rules. When words like "deemed" are used it opens the rule up to someone's opinion. Since these bodies are used on 1/10th scale pan cars they can't be made in the same proportions as their full sized counterparts and are therefore out of scale. So the question becomes what is "realistic" enough to be considered a "replica". The word replica is actually mis-used in the ROAR rules since to be a replica the body would have to be an exact copy of the original in all dimensions. So that leaves it up to a person or comittee to decide whether a body is realistic enough to meet the intent of the class and approve it or not. I like the new bodies for their looks and appreciate that they really help my cars stick better in less than perfect conditions.

The biggest exception to the ROAR rules is the Sophia since it has not been raced as outlined in the rules; I would grant a pass to it for two reasons: Alfa Romeo's long racing heritage, and the fact that when this class barely existed Dale stuck his neck out and produced a body for it
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