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Old 03-05-2009, 09:10 PM   #76
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guys,
I have been lurking this thread for a bit, and i have a little input. first of all, i want to say that i am not a currently active RC racer, but i used to race pan cars in the widwest, ,back when they were popular, and I am watching WGT as a way to get back into the hobby, go fast and not go broke. what appeals to me is the simplicity, low maintenance, and the speed that pan cars represent, and realism is really not high on the list for me. i think that one of the unique things about pan cars in the RC world is that they are pure race cars, and are not derived from "bashing". Pan cars are designed from the gound up as a track weapon, and were never meant to represent a full scale car. in fact, i don't think that the body shapes are what is killing TC, i think it is the spiraling costs that drive everyone away. take 1/12th for example, or even 1/8th buggy. these cars are pure race machines with no resemblence to any person carrying car ever made, yet they are popular.
i am not saying realistic bodies are not cool, it is just that maybe they are better suited to cars with less power or AWD, so that maybe a good handling body does not make quite such a difference.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:48 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Keep in mind - You guys are posting images of bodies you like with TC tires on them. Some rubber and some foam but either way they are quite a bit larger than the WGT tires. Jaco's rims are only 1.875" and I believe the BSR's are around 1.92". The TC rims are 50-53mm depending on the mfg. (1.96"-2.08"). Large tires in WGT are still smaller than the smallest race tires we run now so again it's hard to proportion. The max wheel size is 2" for WGT but no one has made anything that size (yes, they've been drawn for 2-3 years..lol)

Add in the fact that most of the WGT races are on high bite carpet it tends to want to get the body low to keep traction rolling and lifting tires to a minimum so the cars are easy and fun to drive. It's a balance and while people may say that the bodies Parma and Protoform have made are out of line or whatever but they have made as close of the origional replicas as they could while fitting the rules and trying to get the performance to get everyone out there to buy one.

Wing wire and buttons is a pain in the #*@. I'll pass on that notion and ROAR even finally got smart and pulled that rule from the oval side. With standardized mounts it's easy to make trim lines and keep bodies to the legal limits and heights.

Just my .02....
Then I guess it is back to larger wheels then? That is one thing you and Dale have mentioned now.

BTW Josh, what happened with you and Motonica? Send me a PM if something big happened.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:32 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Keep in mind - You guys are posting images of bodies you like with TC tires on them. Some rubber and some foam but either way they are quite a bit larger than the WGT tires. Jaco's rims are only 1.875" and I believe the BSR's are around 1.92". The TC rims are 50-53mm depending on the mfg. (1.96"-2.08"). Large tires in WGT are still smaller than the smallest race tires we run now so again it's hard to proportion. The max wheel size is 2" for WGT but no one has made anything that size (yes, they've been drawn for 2-3 years..lol)
Real GT-Cars have mostly 18" or 19" rims. So, the wheels are nearly perfect scaled...
http://www.fiagt.com/cars.php?car=C6
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:50 AM   #79
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oldpancardude;
Quote:
guys,
I have been lurking this thread for a bit, and i have a little input. first of all, i want to say that i am not a currently active RC racer, but i used to race pan cars in the widwest, ,back when they were popular, and I am watching WGT as a way to get back into the hobby, go fast and not go broke. what appeals to me is the simplicity, low maintenance, and the speed that pan cars represent, and realism is really not high on the list for me. i think that one of the unique things about pan cars in the RC world is that they are pure race cars, and are not derived from "bashing". Pan cars are designed from the gound up as a track weapon, and were never meant to represent a full scale car. in fact, i don't think that the body shapes are what is killing TC, i think it is the spiraling costs that drive everyone away. take 1/12th for example, or even 1/8th buggy. these cars are pure race machines with no resemblence to any person carrying car ever made, yet they are popular.
i am not saying realistic bodies are not cool, it is just that maybe they are better suited to cars with less power or AWD, so that maybe a good handling body does not make quite such a difference.
Regarding you post - one word: THANKYOU!
Here's a man that "gets it". He would have fit in quite nicely when our group planned this class a year ago.

Der Dicke;
You’re not 100% correct. When a real automotive wheel is measured it’s always measured from “bead to bead” across its diameter. The outer rim material is not factored into the measurement. So, in actuality a 19in. wheel really measures out to be 20in. in diameter.
Please note, the photo below shows an Alfa 8C that has 20in. wheels on it – which are an actual 21in. in diameter. This clearly shows again why we can’t resolve the dilemma caused by our need to use pan car wheels and tires on these WGT cars. A pan car rim @ 1.875 is the scale equivalent of a 17.5 inch wheel. The entire wheel and tire in the photos of my Sophia are approximately the same scale diameter as the wheel (only) in the Alfa 8c photo.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/alfa-romeo-8c-spider.html

Dale - Protoform
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World GT Body Debate Thread-alfaromeo-8c-side.jpg  

Last edited by daleepp; 03-06-2009 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:34 AM   #80
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I like this class as it gives me a chance to run pan cars which I prefer driving. If the bodies were the same as TC or it was LMP cars I'd do what I could to run the class.

I'm indifferent to the realistic body idea. What I do like is the different look that the WGT bodies have to Touring cars and 12th scale and that they perform. A main full of Sophias looks a lot different to a main full of Mazda 6s (which is what invariably happens in rubber TC at our track).

A car that looks realistic but handles crap is a lot less fun than a body that is reasonably close but handles well.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:59 AM   #81
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I like this class as it gives me a chance to run pan cars which I prefer driving. If the bodies were the same as TC or it was LMP cars I'd do what I could to run the class.

I'm indifferent to the realistic body idea. What I do like is the different look that the WGT bodies have to Touring cars and 12th scale and that they perform. A main full of Sophias looks a lot different to a main full of Mazda 6s (which is what invariably happens in rubber TC at our track).

A car that looks realistic but handles crap is a lot less fun than a body that is reasonably close but handles well.
A realistic body is not necessarily going to handle worse. Did anyone complain about World GT after the IIC? I heard nothing but how successful it was.

I don't race World GT so can't comment on the handling, but my World GT experts have told me that the cars are more difficult to drive with the newer generation bodies than they were at the IIC with the Corvette bodies.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:09 AM   #82
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A car that looks realistic but handles crap is a lot less fun than a body that is reasonably close but handles well.
So that's it then? If it looks realistic but handles like crap is not the fault of realism but rather driving and setup in my opinion.

Look at VTA. There is a guy at our track that is running low 11s with a Camaro body. The body is "realistic" enough to recognize it is a Camaro. Yet he tuned his car to handle at high speeds and turn lower numbers. I am pretty sure the same can be done with pan cars.

Or, how about this, since blobs and wedges are the preferred choice by a few more people here and are supported as "this is the only way you can win so shut up and sit down and no setup will ever work and I won't care to try", let's take out the real names. Instead of Aston Martin DB-9, let's call Parma Door Stop 1-A. The Alpha Romeo Sophia can stay since it is not a real car. But the Alpha Romeo part should be changed to Protoform Door Stop Sophia.

I do not understand why speed is everything. Handling and all that can be taken care of with careful adjustments. Plus there are wedge bodies already in existance such as the Lamborghini. The biggest reason I came to this class was because of the realism, like VTA (which I enjoy a ton AS WELL). If the biggest and absolute reason why realistic bodies wont work is because of tire diameters, then let's make a move to the tire manufacturers to increase their diameters to allow realistic bodies to work. I am sure it won't be that hard to do.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:26 AM   #83
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Harry, it will be hard to do if all the wheel/tire mfgs have a sh-ton of plastic rims sitting in stock and refuse to make the new ones until the old stock is dried up. Not to mention the re-tooling costs when there is nothing wrong with the old mold.... I'm not saying that is the case, but I have yet to see rims the sizes that Dale is saying is the proper scale size.

We should make due with what we have until the class picks up enough to warrant investing in a new mold. The economy sucks everywhere, I'm happy to make due with what we already have.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:00 AM   #84
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Harry, it will be hard to do if all the wheel/tire mfgs have a sh-ton of plastic rims sitting in stock and refuse to make the new ones until the old stock is dried up. Not to mention the re-tooling costs when there is nothing wrong with the old mold.... I'm not saying that is the case, but I have yet to see rims the sizes that Dale is saying is the proper scale size.

We should make due with what we have until the class picks up enough to warrant investing in a new mold. The economy sucks everywhere, I'm happy to make due with what we already have.
Excellent point. But for the sake of the debate, we should continue it so Jaco and other tire manufacturers keep these points in mind and understand what people want so they can make the molds to accomodate in case times do improve.

I am just worried that when the class does pick up, we'll be getting more door stop wedge bodies instead of realism. That is what I want to avoid at all costs.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:03 AM   #85
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I am just worried that when the class does pick up, we'll be getting more door stop wedge bodies instead of realism. That is what I want to avoid at all costs.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:28 AM   #86
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Im going to throw this out there. I dont think the Sophia and DB9 look all that different then the real cars they are based on. I think the bigger issue with those two bodies is the real cars they are based on are not recognizable cars. Honestly even if they looked dead on, what % of us could have named the real cars they were based on? The 'Vette on the otherhand almost everyone would have gotten.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:44 AM   #87
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Im going to throw this out there. I dont think the Sophia and DB9 look all that different then the real cars they are based on. I think the bigger issue with those two bodies is the real cars they are based on are not recognizable cars. Honestly even if they looked dead on, what % of us could have named the real cars they were based on? The 'Vette on the otherhand almost everyone would have gotten.
Is that because you're American and are consequently far more likely to see Corvette's around?

I'm in the UK, and although they are hardly 10 a penny, I see Aston DB9's every now and again and hardly ever see a Caorvette.

P.S. No-one ever see's Alfa Romeo's as they are always in the dealers being fixed

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Old 03-06-2009, 11:48 AM   #88
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Yeah it's definately probably regional but we don't even see them on TV where you would see other european cars such as Ferrari's, Lambo's, etc.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:10 PM   #89
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Yeah it's definately probably regional but we don't even see them on TV where you would see other european cars such as Ferrari's, Lambo's, etc.
You can see every race of the American LeMans Series on ABC, NBC, or Speed. The FIA GT championship has been on Speed for many years.
Ferraris and Lambos
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:22 PM   #90
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Sorry I meant mainstream TV/Movies (like Cribs ) not necessarily racing.
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