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Old 03-04-2009, 10:54 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JayL View Post
I am less worried about the bodies and more worried about all the 4-cell cars out there..I would like this class to go lipo 2s




regarding the bodies, doesn't it cost more for the companies to make a real car body than a made up one???
This I do not understand at all, if you want 2s lipo run Pro-10 then you can have your lipo and the doorstops that hold the car down until you hit a pebble. This is WGT and the rule for this class is 4 cell, why do people keep coming into these threads and trying to push Pro-10 rules?

Yes there are higher costs involved with making a replica body, but why pay those costs if what you make isn't like the original? You might as well make a fantasy car. Honestly I think I would be ok with that rather than have the idea it's supposed to be xyz car and look nothing like it other than the stickers. Also for this class I would still rather not see the bodies, replica or not, not have the sloped noses on them.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:05 AM   #17
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JayL if youre not gonna make a point about WGT bodies then stay out...read the title...World GT BODY Debate Thread...not battery...if you want to talk batteries take it to the Electronics sub-forum
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayL View Post
I am less worried about the bodies and more worried about all the 4-cell cars out there..I would like this class to go lipo 2s




regarding the bodies, doesn't it cost more for the companies to make a real car body than a made up one???
One idea being proposed at my track to help make 200mm Pan Cars more popular and appealing is to have a Lipo 2s 17.5 class race alongside the 4-cell 13.5 class. As it stands right now, the biggest complaint on why people will not run 200mm pan cars is the fact that only 4-cell NiMH is allowed.

But seriously, I believe you can have your cake and eat it to, when it comes to car bodies. Look at VTA. We have a couple guys at The Track I run at, running low to mid 11's. And this is using slightly realistic bodies. Imagine that... Anything is possible if careful attention to detail is taken into account. Resting on the fact that "if you don't run a 'wedge' body, you'll never win" is bogus in my opinion. It is possible. Dale Epp even indirectly hinted at that when he was talking about tire diameters (one part of the equation).

And if the hardcore racer feels that if he does not run a "wedge" body he will never win, then why not petition ROAR and have them run the "wedge" bodies in a mod class, like 5.5 mod with a "wedge" body. I think this can work both ways.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:21 AM   #19
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I'm with or8ital on this one.

I consider myself to be a racer above all. However, there is a small part of me that wants to see some form of realism in the bodies. In touring, you can look at a Mazda 6 without stickers and think "hmmmm, that kinda looks like a Mazda 6" The lines are still there, they are just tweaked a little bit to provide the much needed downforce. I't the same way with the C6 Vette. But the same cannot be said about the DB-9. To me, it is an incredibly dulled down version of an Aston. The lines are there, but they are tweaked so far that it's very difficult (for me at least) to recognize it as a DB-9. Take away the paint scheme and decals and it becomes something more fictional than a representation. Therefore terms like "slot car" and "door stop" come to mind. I have no doubts that Paul and the team at Parma have made a body that handles wonderful, but calling it a DB-9 is a bit far fetched to me.

that's my take anyways... take it or leave it
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:58 PM   #20
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Moving this over from the other thread to respond to it:

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Originally Posted by academygaz View Post
The problem is, ''apparently'' these two cars are Aston Martins:





The Parma one is.....if you've got cataracts. I really hope the BRCA doesn't pass it as legal.

I'm pretty sure those are of different model years though. Austin Martins of previous years had a bigger grill and higher nose then the current one does. Compare the nose of the 2nd body to the pic of the actual car that was posted and you can see the difference.



The Parma body is more in line with this car then the Kyosho body. Given that WGT pan cars are completely out of scale dimensions to the dimensions of the real car, it's a pretty good compromise.
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:21 PM   #21
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If I may quote a spectator I was speaking to at a recent big meeting when I asked which cars did he like.

"Oh the Minis for sure"

"Why the minis?"

"Well I can tell what they are, what are all those other cars meant to be?"
(referring in this instance to Touring Car blobs)

Not talking up Minis here, just showing that to the general public, the non-recognisable blobs have little to no appeal.
And its not easy to bring new people if they can't even be bothered watching... Doesn't matter if it's WGT, ISTC or anything, we need the public to relate to the cars.

They like to be able to say
'Hey check out the red Ferrari, yellow Lambo etc'

not

'Hey check out that melted blob'..
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:22 PM   #22
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Orbital has it right...but there are 2 other issues involved too besides the hobbiest vs the racer mentality...well one kinda relates to that. The first being perception. Which relates to the hobbiest vs racer. What I percieve as a realistic body is not the same as what Joe Shmoe percieves as realistic. Even within hobbiests or racers there is quite a varience in what is acceptably realistic. The 2nd is the dimensions of the WGT cars themselves. Manufactures are trying to stretch, pinch, squash real car designs that vary greatly in dimensions on to a chassis of a specific dimension set that doesn't match in scale any of the full sized counterparts. So yes the bodies are going to come out a bit distorted, even the most realistic of them.

Even if the standard is "recognizable" bodies that comes down to personal interpretation of what recognizable is. I've seen a number of bodies that without the stickers are unrecognizable...but put the stickers on them and they are very recognizable, to me. So then the question becomes what constitutes recognizable?
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony gray View Post
If I may quote a spectator I was speaking to at a recent big meeting when I asked which cars did he like.

"Oh the Minis for sure"

"Why the minis?"

"Well I can tell what they are, what are all those other cars meant to be?"
(referring in this instance to Touring Car blobs)

Not talking up Minis here, just showing that to the general public, the non-recognisable blobs have little to no appeal.
And its not easy to bring new people if they can't even be bothered watching... Doesn't matter if it's WGT, ISTC or anything, we need the public to relate to the cars.

They like to be able to say
'Hey check out the red Ferrari, yellow Lambo etc'

not

'Hey check out that melted blob'..

The same holds true for Trans Am...that is one of our biggest spectator class because the cars are much more realistic and recognizeable. However keep this in mind too...most spectators are just passerbys and not avid fans of full sized racing. If that same person were watching a race full of the Tamiya Courage, Audi LMP, or the old Tamiya GTP cars...all of which are extremely well done in their realism...they would still be confused as to what they were and consider them blobs.
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:30 PM   #24
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
The underlying problem (more widespread then bodies) is there seems to be two types of folks in RC. The hobbyists and the racers. The hobbyists tend to be the ones that want the realistic bodies and want to race with other hobbyists. The racer wants what is fastest and are always preparing for the next big race. When they mix is when you have the problem. The first group screams about the price, lack of realism, batteries of the week, changing technology, etc. The racers, if forced to run under hobbyist rules, complain about not being able to prepare for big races by using a different set of rules. Neither group is necessarily wrong in the line of thinking. It's just that you can't please everyone. Every debate thread IMHO seems to come down to those two sides in the end. Just my .02.
+3
I agree that this is a beautiful summary of all the drama in electric on-road R/C racing concerning all the competing class for the same few racers/hobbyist. I would just like to add that there is a 3rd group that want the realism and are also very, very competitive.

This 3rd group is currently finding their fix with the TCS, HPI Challenge, USVTA, and RCGT series of racing. This 3rd group seem to have the most money, the most time to go racing, and tend to be very knowlegable on how to make realistic looking cars perform well and look well.

Therefore, for R/C to grow, you cannot go wrong with realism. A newbie will alway be attracted to a realistic looking car than a aerodynmic shell with stickers that links to a somewhat real car.

Unfortunately, this 3rd group will not be attracted to the pan car chassis that WorldGT is based on. The pan car is based on the simplicity and speed. I just don't understand why the founders of WorldGT limit the speed by choosing the dead-end NiMh 4 cell, yet speed up the cars with wedge bodies. It seems that 2 sides of the brain are fighting each other.

  • The NiMh batteries is currently killing this class from racers that I talk to.
  • The chassis and unrealistic bodies (new ones that came out) is killing this class from Hobbyist that I talk to.
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:53 PM   #26
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I want to race in a class that I can use a realistic body. That is why I race USVTA. I have been considering also running Pro-10 or WGT, but I want the body to look like a real car, not a wedge. If everyone is running a "poorly" handling body, then everyone is running on a level playing field.

If you can slow a class down and take away some downforce from the body, then you put racing back into the hands of the drivers. If people want 4-cell wedge racing, there is always 1/12 on-road.
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:06 PM   #27
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I think this class was started so that there is a cheaper alternative to Touring sedan...... The dimensions of the chasis it self and tires makes it difficult to have a scale looking body add racing to the mix and body manuf will tend to go with function vs scale....

If you really want to race a realistic class, there are new classes that are getting popular such as RCGT, VTA, and the mini class....
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
I want to race in a class that I can use a realistic body. That is why I race USVTA. I have been considering also running Pro-10 or WGT, but I want the body to look like a real car, not a wedge. If everyone is running a "poorly" handling body, then everyone is running on a level playing field.

If you can slow a class down and take away some downforce from the body, then you put racing back into the hands of the drivers. If people want 4-cell wedge racing, there is always 1/12 on-road.
+1 Well said.
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:08 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
The same holds true for Trans Am...that is one of our biggest spectator class because the cars are much more realistic and recognizeable. However keep this in mind too...most spectators are just passerbys and not avid fans of full sized racing. If that same person were watching a race full of the Tamiya Courage, Audi LMP, or the old Tamiya GTP cars...all of which are extremely well done in their realism...they would still be confused as to what they were and consider them blobs.
Actually, when I first started the hobby way back 6 years ago, I was drawn to the realistic bodies. My first car was an HPI RS4 Racer 2. I ran a Dodge Stratus (pre-warping).
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamB&B View Post
+3
I agree that this is a beautiful summary of all the drama in electric on-road R/C racing concerning all the competing class for the same few racers/hobbyist. I would just like to add that there is a 3rd group that want the realism and are also very, very competitive.

This 3rd group is currently finding their fix with the TCS, HPI Challenge, USVTA, and RCGT series of racing. This 3rd group seem to have the most money, the most time to go racing, and tend to be very knowlegable on how to make realistic looking cars perform well and look well.

Therefore, for R/C to grow, you cannot go wrong with realism. A newbie will alway be attracted to a realistic looking car than a aerodynmic shell with stickers that links to a somewhat real car.

Unfortunately, this 3rd group will not be attracted to the pan car chassis that WorldGT is based on. The pan car is based on the simplicity and speed. I just don't understand why the founders of WorldGT limit the speed by choosing the dead-end NiMh 4 cell, yet speed up the cars with wedge bodies. It seems that 2 sides of the brain are fighting each other.

  • The NiMh batteries is currently killing this class from racers that I talk to.
  • The chassis and unrealistic bodies (new ones that came out) is killing this class from Hobbyist that I talk to.
+4 With exception to the last point of platform.

WGT was supposed to be a driving skill class not go as fast as possible class, that is for pro 10. 17.5 2S lipo would be about the limit where go fast becomes more important than driving skill for the average club racer. We've already proven that the 21.5s are faster than the 13.5 Touring cars running 2S lipos. We may be a rogue pocket of lipo guys at our track, but it works for us. The 200 mm pan platform is simple and cheaper in the long run. They are easy to work on and handle extremely well. If the bodies stay realistic and the motor and battery kept at a driving skill required speed, spectators as well as racers can enjoy the show.
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