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Old 02-05-2009, 09:52 PM   #151
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Funny, I never said it wasn't.
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Old 02-05-2009, 10:13 PM   #152
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HAHA!! This thread has some good creativity in it! I chuckled at a couple of the 'optimized' captions. Maybe XRAY should add some of you to their ad team! We all know that Mario and his staff are fond of their adjectives, but it is a bit difficult to highlight some of the quality/materials differences between brands without just attacking others(which they will not do). It's interesting that the HUDY brand, which has been copied by more Chinese knockoff's than I can count, doesn't receive the same attention that some of you seem to do here. These knock offs actually provide a low quality imitations that sponge off the positive track record of HUDY, and give the customer less for their money. They offer no improvements, changes, features that set them apart, they actually hope you mistake it for a HUDY brand item. Apparently, nobody has an issue with that! XRAY may be a bit over the top with some of their listings, but they have always tried to provide the highest quality, best performing, most optimized product possible. The same 'enthusiastic' staff that everyone seems to be bagging on is also responsible for one of the best looking and most informative site in the industry. Their ads always look great, and their site/forum give more info and access to XRAY customers than just about any other brand!

After reading through three pages of posting from a few people, I was reminded of a scene from the movie Jay and Silent Bob. Ben Affleck is describing a new website Movie Poop Shoot where movie enthusiasts were posting their opinions about Jay and Bob. I believe Affleck's quote was "This is a site populated by militant movie buffs....downloading scripts and what they think is inside information about movies and actors they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing." That seemed to describe many XRAY threads on this site pretty well! Once the kits reach the tracks, I expect this one will settle down too, just like the other threads. I think I have a link to that actual audio somewhere, but the rest of the movie is pretty vulgar and probably not appropriate here!

XRAY has always been responsive to their customers. This may not be what everyone envisioned, but it seems a bit premature to write it off before one has even hit our tracks. Just look at their new 2009 spec off-road kits. They addressed just about every concern/issue that customers brought up over the past year. If there turns out to be some issues or class changes for the X10, I am sure XRAY will respond. If World GT turns into a LiPo only class in the future, I am sure XRAY will respond appropriately. I can't promise they will change their marketing speak though!

Drew has been a long time XRAY guy and very loyal to RC America and XRAY, so I know why he gets fired up about some of the attacks. Drew puts in more effort into helping racers than just about anyone I have met. It does seem a bit odd that in three pages of posts, there wasn't much of anything about what I would expect would be the number one criteria in a race car, performance! Once the cars are out, I am sure Drew, Ralph, and the rest of the team will be more than happy to assist with any questions or setup help possible.

McSmooth - I believe Paul ran a Trinity 1/12 car at the 'Birds. I won't speak publically about private affairs, but pro drivers race these cars for more than just fun, and Paul has a family to take care of

AndrewD- I think P2 may have answered your questions about the front end, but if we can help with any other info, don't hesitate to call us at the office!

Everyone - We don't have final pricing yet, but we expect it to be close to the XII. I would guess that info will be available from XRAY(then us) shortly.

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:58 PM   #153
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See:

BMI: (Innovative rear suspension design)


Serpent: (Innovative Tbar/Tweak/Rear Pod design, and nice front end)


CRC: (Innovative Pro-Strut front end)


And others including AE.

There's plenty of innovation still alive. Xray is just not one of them... chosing to copy designs from the 80's and 90's instead of going on a limb and trying something clever like the above cars.
Regarding going out on a limb? Talk to martin, and he will answer your questions personally. I already asked, the T-bar car was the best all around solution that they tried. Why fight what works? The prototype made the Main at the worlds race.. What more do you want? You didn't bother looking at the car did you? Front caster is easy to adjust, the whole car is based on the KISS concept. Keep It Simple Stupid. If the same car works fine at the asphalt worlds, and works fine on carpet at the British nationals with a 15 year old at the wheel (not to take anything away from him, as that kid can wheel) without driving the car how are all of you going to talk smack?

I have tested my share of 1/12th scale cars and guess what, like every other type of motorsport. there are going to be 20 different designs, some good some bad. But you will still have drivers racing all the different cars, engineered by different people, set up for different drivers. and guess what, innovative or not. they are all going to go about the same speed. But until you drive the thing you don't know. So I would suggest you reserve judgment till you PERSONALLY drive one.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:08 PM   #154
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Well thankfully the tone of the thread started to calm down a bit. However, again, (as the famous words of Barak Obama) "As I have always said before" let's see what the price is for the carbon fiber diving board. If it is a hair above $212, sorry, Xray better justify the price.

I agree, the KISS concept is great! But it doesn't mean you can't be innovative, can it? That is why I would like to point out with the CRC car. It's innovative, but simple to tune, build, and understand. I think a lot of proud CRC owners can appreciate that fact.

Again, I think Xray used to put out some great cars. I think the NT1 is a GREAT car that has set the bar up for others to follow. Mugen still relies on buying old designs from Serpent and improving upon it and calling it a MRX4, MRX5, etc. The MTX4 has taken a lot of hints from the NT1. Same with that Sheperd 10th scale car that looks like a mirror copy of the NT1.

All I am saying is if Xray is to justify their price, they should continue with their innovative designs like they have in the nitro world. I have an XB8TQ buggy and think it will be awesome, if it ever gets built. I also have the N18T and M18T with the Hudy starter box. Also which are unbuilt. But that just shows you that I am not 100% biased. Just 80% with their electric cars.

That's all I will say. I await the official pricing of this diving board. But again, get ready to face the flames if that car is above $212 without a good reason.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:18 PM   #155
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Well thankfully the tone of the thread started to calm down a bit. However, again, (as the famous words of Barak Obama) "As I have always said before" let's see what the price is for the carbon fiber diving board. If it is a hair above $212, sorry, Xray better justify the price.

I agree, the KISS concept is great! But it doesn't mean you can't be innovative, can it? That is why I would like to point out with the CRC car. It's innovative, but simple to tune, build, and understand. I think a lot of proud CRC owners can appreciate that fact.

Again, I think Xray used to put out some great cars. I think the NT1 is a GREAT car that has set the bar up for others to follow. Mugen still relies on buying old designs from Serpent and improving upon it and calling it a MRX4, MRX5, etc. The MTX4 has taken a lot of hints from the NT1. Same with that Sheperd 10th scale car that looks like a mirror copy of the NT1.

and every damn 1/12th scale car I have gotten since 2004 is above $212 in price. The only ones that weren't were cars that I was prototype testing... every car on the market is more than that. But given Xray plastics maybe I won't have to rebuild the front end every track day (common for other brand front ends)


All I am saying is if Xray is to justify their price, they should continue with their innovative designs like they have in the nitro world. I have an XB8TQ buggy and think it will be awesome, if it ever gets built. I also have the N18T and M18T with the Hudy starter box. Also which are unbuilt. But that just shows you that I am not 100% biased. Just 80% with their electric cars.

That's all I will say. I await the official pricing of this diving board. But again, get ready to face the flames if that car is above $212 without a good reason.
in case you have been living in a hole the price of materials, carbon, al, and everything has gone up. not to mention the Euro to dollar has gone to crap, something that xray can't help. At work (1:1 race team) our cost on everything has gone up more than 20%. So you guys should be happy that you can still but a car for under $600 thats made in another country other than Taiwan or china. Yeah its easy for associated to make a car thats cheap and decently fast. cause its 100% made in china, same with serpent.

Look at the front end of the XII, lets see you match the caster adjustment to any other car. The S120 you gotta buy two other sets of $35 blocks to adjust caster (in the first run of kits like I got). I wasn't a fan of the car until I looked at the manual and they have some nice additions. Its 1/12th scale, there isn't a whole lot that has been tried and been a lot better, hence why they always end up going back to the same layout. Remember the trinity reactive caster turn buckle pain in the ass to adjust front ends like the ones on the evolution 10? The T bar design is better than the S120... I mean if you want you can bench race for days about the same old crap. get out and race..
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:32 PM   #156
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Also, what other MFG do you have the same support as Xray? They have a forum where you can get questions answered from the man himself. Where input that you give on the forum can be taken directly to company meetings and feedback received. I know when I was running losi or other cars, they could give a crap less about an individual driver.. Never had the personal support from ANY other company I have run, save for Maverick running oval but thats a whole different monster. Drew is ever helpful, Paul answers all the questions in his thread, Bryan will help you out with whatever parts stuff you need or questions about what Massimo recommends for an engine, ralph... hello he is what, 28 time national champion and he will take a phone call directly from a FNG. Whatever car Xray puts out, they will be there to help sort it all out even if you get stuck and can't figure something out. I blew a diff at paved nats and one of the guys handed me one out of his box. I have been racing Xray cars since 2004 paved nats, and unless those guys all quit, I don't plan on running anything else cause they make the whole thing work. The boys in europe design the stuff and RC America helps work through it all to make you as fast as possible.

If you haven't ran the car, and haven't gotten the whole experience, shhhh.


The comedic part is the guys that are complaining about the cost of an Xray probably didn't call or write anyone about the 4 dollar a gallon gas we had earlier this year.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:33 PM   #157
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in case you have been living in a hole the price of materials, carbon, al, and everything has gone up. not to mention the Euro to dollar has gone to crap, something that xray can't help. At work (1:1 race team) our cost on everything has gone up more than 20%. So you guys should be happy that you can still but a car for under $600 thats made in another country other than Taiwan or china. Yeah its easy for associated to make a car thats cheap and decently fast. cause its 100% made in china, same with serpent.

Look at the front end of the XII, lets see you match the caster adjustment to any other car. The S120 you gotta buy two other sets of $35 blocks to adjust caster (in the first run of kits like I got). I wasn't a fan of the car until I looked at the manual and they have some nice additions. Its 1/12th scale, there isn't a whole lot that has been tried and been a lot better, hence why they always end up going back to the same layout. Remember the trinity reactive caster turn buckle pain in the ass to adjust front ends like the ones on the evolution 10? The T bar design is better than the S120... I mean if you want you can bench race for days about the same old crap. get out and race..
+1.

Just saying it better not carry a high price and expect the flames thereof.

Anyways, did you hear the Black Stig has come back to Top Gear, after hearing the White Stig (Ben Collins I think is somewhat confirmed) is going to bite the axe? Rumor (YES RUMOR NOT FACT) has it that there is to be a showdown between the White Stig and Black Stig in an interesting race.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:46 PM   #158
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Its 1/12th scale, there isn't a whole lot that has been tried and been a lot better
Then we need to attract better engineers to the industry.

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I mean if you want you can bench race for days about the same old crap. get out and race..
Ah, but bench racing is all that we have for a car that is unavailable.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:46 PM   #159
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+1.

Just saying it better not carry a high price and expect the flames thereof.

Anyways, did you hear the Black Stig has come back to Top Gear, after hearing the White Stig (Ben Collins I think is somewhat confirmed) is going to bite the axe? Rumor (YES RUMOR NOT FACT) has it that there is to be a showdown between the White Stig and Black Stig in an interesting race.
Thats to funny, Haven't heard about that. But I have been in my own little hole getting ready for winternats I can't wait to see it tho.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:52 PM   #160
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Then we need to attract better engineers to the industry.



Ah, but bench racing is all that we have for a car that is unavailable.
Good point bob, However. In 1:1 racing the best engineers are where the money is. F1 and Nascar. I don't know for sure but the best RC companies probably can't compete with the salaries that real teams can come up with and as you know real deep pockets are required for prototyping and testing a lot of parts and concepts even on CFD and computer simulations they all cost money + time. Tires right now are what I believe is holding us back in a lot of ways (mainly rubber tire classes like touring car since its had spec tires for many years now which doesn't encourage the tire wars) It seems like the more prudent approach is go with what works and what doesn't cost a shite load of money so we can grow the sport. Because IMO we need more racers, not necessarily more cars. Would you agree?
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:14 AM   #161
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Good point bob, However. In 1:1 racing the best engineers are where the money is. F1 and Nascar. I don't know for sure but the best RC companies probably can't compete with the salaries that real teams can come up with and as you know real deep pockets are required for prototyping and testing a lot of parts and concepts even on CFD and computer simulations they all cost money + time. Tires right now are what I believe is holding us back in a lot of ways (mainly rubber tire classes like touring car since its had spec tires for many years now which doesn't encourage the tire wars) It seems like the more prudent approach is go with what works and what doesn't cost a shite load of money so we can grow the sport. Because IMO we need more racers, not necessarily more cars. Would you agree?
With the statement that we need more racers, yes, that is good. With the idea that a car that's $50 cheaper is gonna get it done... nope.

I've used this analogy before, I'll use it again. Last motocross race I raced in, 400 riders at the event. Nobody bitching about expense, nobody griping about the new bikes every year. Pits full of $4,000-$12,000 bikes (LOCALLY). Wonder if they'd get more racers if somebody produced a bike for $2000?

Why it is that people associate more racers, ONLY with a low priced car? If that were the case, only the cheapest cars would ever sell. Only the cheapest of ANY hobby product or full size car would ever sell.

Which do you suppose sells better worldwide, (pic your favorite touring car) or the HPI Baja ?

I feel there are some excellent engineers in our industry. Some don't get any recognition, some are lazy. It isn't about money for most, it's about the love of the hobby, and they keep plugging away. It's about the pride in saying (to yourself) "ha..HA...top this!!!!"

I don't have all the answers... I just pretend to have them.
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:17 AM   #162
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Good point bob, However. In 1:1 racing the best engineers are where the money is. F1 and Nascar. I don't know for sure but the best RC companies probably can't compete with the salaries that real teams can come up with and as you know real deep pockets are required for prototyping and testing a lot of parts and concepts even on CFD and computer simulations they all cost money + time. Tires right now are what I believe is holding us back in a lot of ways (mainly rubber tire classes like touring car since its had spec tires for many years now which doesn't encourage the tire wars) It seems like the more prudent approach is go with what works and what doesn't cost a shite load of money so we can grow the sport. Because IMO we need more racers, not necessarily more cars. Would you agree?
Eh, I somewhat disagree. Take Josh Cyrul for example. He plays a key role in development with some cars like Motonica, Top Racing, and CETFX for example. We need more Josh Cyrul.

And just for you RX7ttlm:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090205....-from-the-dead

The video is real and authentic. If anyone else here is a Top Gear fan, stay tuned to watch a really damn awesome race (if the showdown between white stig and black stig is true).
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:25 AM   #163
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With the statement that we need more racers, yes, that is good. With the idea that a car that's $50 cheaper is gonna get it done... nope.

I've used this analogy before, I'll use it again. Last motocross race I raced in, 400 riders at the event. Nobody bitching about expense, nobody griping about the new bikes every year. Pits full of $4,000-$12,000 bikes (LOCALLY). Wonder if they'd get more racers if somebody produced a bike for $2000?

Why it is that people associate more racers, ONLY with a low priced car? If that were the case, only the cheapest cars would ever sell. Only the cheapest of ANY hobby product or full size car would ever sell.

With that analogy, the Baja 5T would never sell.
I agree, But how much of a difference in lap times is there between a TC5 and a Hot bodies or T2008? Its also a whole different market bob. Personally I am almost done with an engine that I built for my personal race car that is about 6k in hard parts. But your talking about a 600% difference in cost (2k vs 12k bikes). As you know getting 5% better performance out of something gets REALLY spendy.

And I didn't mean cheap car more racers, I ment a $350 TC5 is more attractive to a new guy than a $500 T2009. as good as the car may be, they also may not be able to get the last 10% out of the car and make the $150 difference worth it is what I was getting at.

Anyhow, if all the MFG hired the best engineers, did more R&D, made the cars that much faster, cost went up 20-40%. Would that make the racing better? Would that improve sales? I don't claim to know all of that.. but it is food for thought. For me at least, since I am going back to school to finish my degree I don't think that a 20% increase for a faster better engineered car will help me want to race, or in this economy afford to race.

Note: bench racing with bob is fun cause it doesn't just talk shit, brings up good points... lol
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:27 AM   #164
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Eh, I somewhat disagree. Take Josh Cyrul for example. He plays a key role in development with some cars like Motonica, Top Racing, and CETFX for example. We need more Josh Cyrul.

And just for you RX7ttlm:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090205....-from-the-dead

The video is real and authentic. If anyone else here is a Top Gear fan, stay tuned to watch a really damn awesome race (if the showdown between white stig and black stig is true).
like I said, all companies have problems. Josh helped me out at big races too.... WHEN HE WAS RUNNING XRAY lol.... But josh is but one man, I struggled a bit to get parts when my C12 was new... so yeah...
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:30 AM   #165
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http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090205....-from-the-dead

The video is real and authentic. If anyone else here is a Top Gear fan, stay tuned to watch a really damn awesome race (if the showdown between white stig and black stig is true).
hmm... looks fake to me, but I dunno.. we shall see..
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