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Old 04-29-2009, 04:38 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post

Skiddins, what LRP have done means to me that simple temp monitoring is not going to be useful, and that seems to be supported by your observations. I don't use temps alone, because that's not telling me what's now going on. I can easily understand how these failures have happened, and they are because users are assuming that the BL motor technology, which is static relative to speedo technology, means that the speedo technology will affect the motor in the same way all the time - it doesn't!

As I said, fault here lies with the user, not the speedo and motor manufacturer. Since the vast majority of people are using this excellent product without any problems, you tell me what the difference is between your observations and ours? Methinks it's not the product.

I read your post carefully, and that's why I said what I said. HTH
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I have plenty of ideas, and through checking the speedo on an oscilloscope, I know what's causing these problems.........when you put clever technology in the hands of people who do no homework, and have no desire to find out how to handle what's been provided
Contradicting? Or are you suggesting that every user buy's an oscilloscope to ascertain exactly how they should use the product.

I have read the manual supplied and it doesn't even mention gearing down when using the higher profiles, that information has been 'supplied' on this forum by those with some experience of the product and eventually by 'Burito' (who I would like to thank for coming on here and answering questions at all , good customer service is hard to find!)

So why don't you tell us exactly what is happening (presumably involving the timing) so we can all make sensible decisions that won't blow motors or the ESC's.

The output from the motor wires won't be 'IP', how the firmware delivers this performance will be.

I'm not asking for reverse engineering of the firmware, just your findings.
I have access to an oscilloscope at work but it would be nice to know the outcome without risking my ESC

You can PM me if you want.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:37 PM   #182
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[QUOTE=SlowerOne;5748350]I have now seen a few of the Nosram version of these ESC's die at club meetings, 3 that I know of.So what. An observation, not a fact that has relevance to the situation of user competence.

And I have also seen 3 motors killed by them, they were all well within their temp tolerances, about 50-60 degC and geared down slightly.An example of correlation being cause (as in loud music causes acne because one sees young people listening to loud music have acne). There is no evidence that the speedo killed the motor of itself, or whether the motor was unable to take the settings and gearing input by the user.

The only thing these failures seem to have in common is the use of launch controls off the start line.Again, no evidence, just conjecture.

Do you have any idea's what might be causing these?I have plenty of ideas, and through checking the speedo on an oscilloscope, I know what's causing these problems. However, Reto chooses not to tell you what is happening, so I choose not to reveal something he clearly thinks is intellectual property to LRP. You'll put that down to a cop-out on my part, so I'll have to live with that. I work in an industry where IP is key to competitive advantage, so I know how important this is to LRP.

We have also noticed that instead of the usual 25 year warranty, the new versions come with a 90day warranty!!!See the above - when you put clever technology in the hands of people who do no homework, and have no desire to find out how to handle what's been provided, what would you do?!! (OK, that's harsh, but when you give people the chance to run this stuff right to the edge, and know what the average (or even lap-record-level!) user would do, I'd put the warranty on 'minimum'! )

Worries about reliability? Nope, worries about users!!

Skiddins, what LRP have done means to me that simple temp monitoring is not going to be useful, and that seems to be supported by your observations. I don't use temps alone, because that's not telling me what's now going on. I can easily understand how these failures have happened, and they are because users are assuming that the BL motor technology, which is static relative to speedo technology, means that the speedo technology will affect the motor in the same way all the time - it doesn't!

As I said, fault here lies with the user, not the speedo and motor manufacturer. Since the vast majority of people are using this excellent product without any problems, you tell me what the difference is between your observations and ours? Methinks it's not the product.

I read your post carefully, and that's why I said what I said. HTH [/QUOTE

Slowerone
You really shouldnt judge peeps when you don't know them dude, Skidins knows his sh!t, and I have known him for years, along with the peeps he refering to braking track records etc, and with regards to blowing these SPEC esc's using launch control, coz one of those guys is me, and I take humbridge to you saying its a 'User problem' coz believe me im not green to this game. There are many of us that talk of what is going on with this situation, I have personally had 2 blow on me, but luckily my sponsor has replaced them, and a BIG thankyou to them for doing so.
It would be good if someone would come on here and give us some sound advice on where we could be falling short of what to do to stop this ongoing situation, other than someone coming on here seeminly taking the p!ss
Cheers TCCFM
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:44 PM   #183
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I'll stop coming on here saying what I say when users come on here and accept responsibility for their actions, and not inferring that a product is faulty. As you can see from EA's post, and Steve Weiss' reply, there is very little fact around, and lots of urban myth. People have to find this out themselves from facts, and not conjecture.

I appreciate you don't like what I say, but I don't like that you assume that all manufacturers have slapdash processes, and that when things go wrong it is down to the product, and not you. I choose to come on and say that, sorry if it's hard to take.

The same issues that had you all running away from brushed motors still apply to BL motors. Whenever you get new software, do what we used to do with BR - go right down on the gearing (right down, real low), feel the motor on the track, and gear up in order to get nice, brisk acceleration off the turns, and a top-out on speed about half-way down the straight.

The amount of capacity used, and the temperature of the motor, are less relevant than the performance of the motor on the track. If you have a high ambient temperature, or a very open and fast track, then gearing has to take temp into account as well.

These are still permanent magnet, DC electric motors, and they still have the same basic characteristics as BR. Somehow, we have forgotten what that is until now, when the performance is getting to the edge of the technology's ability. These things aren't bullet-proof just because they are BL, they are very sensitive and complex pieces of kit - much more so than BR.

We've arrived, within two years, back where we were with BR. Too much energy available (7.4v LiPo) for the system (especially in 10.5) and software/motor adjustments that have no sensible limit on timing, are taking the place of the brushes in generating too much heat. The main difference is it now costs almost twice as much to replace them, or to buy the latest specs.

I hope that advice helps, and that Reto grants your wish of telling you exactly how the profiles 7 and 8 work.

Anyway, back in the thread - my SPX is awesome. Total reliability, and makes the car quicker than it was. There's a nice balance to be had between profile six and some motor timing, and profile seven and no motor timing. These need to be played against each other on the track to find the quickest setting over the race distance. HTH
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Old 04-30-2009, 12:29 AM   #184
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Default Motor Timing with the SPX

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Originally Posted by burito View Post
There are limitations on what you're capable to do with software timing, the mechanical motor timing always plays a certain role. That will never change.

Btw, if you speak of "0 degree" advance in the motor, to which motor are you refering to then?
Because the so called "0 degree" position on the motor is never at real zero degrees! Most wye wound motors have ~30 mechanical timing built into the motor and this is what many motor manufacturers claim to be zero timing. But since not everyone uses the same standard it's hard to compare motors in regards of timing and also hard for speedo companies as all motors vary in mechanical timing and therefore act different to software timing!
Reto,

Was referring to the Trinity Duo 13.5 and 17.5 motors. Both motors have been fastest for me on carpet and asphalt tracks with their timing set to the least advanced timing with the SPX speedo.

I would certainly take your recommendations on similar wound motors from LRP. For those, can you make suggestions on timing and gearing for some on-road scenarios? In general, we have big/small asphalt tracks and big/small carpet tracks in my area?

In regard to large asphalt tracks, I will be at the Reedy Race at Speedworld in a few weeks running the 13.5 motor class.

Many thanks.

Cheers!

Bill
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:02 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
I'll stop coming on here saying what I say when users come on here and accept responsibility for their actions, and not inferring that a product is faulty.
You are saying that that its my fault that the speedo goes pop, when there have been many racers I know that have had these go on them. In truth, the racers that I know that have had these go pop on them, are top national racers, and therefore treat the equipment with respect, so you coming on here stating that they should ' accept responsibility for their actions, and not inferring that a product is faulty' doesn't bode well me im afraid.
What we need is someone with the knowledge of these esc's to tell us what is happening in say mode 7 & 8 I here through the grape vine, that the Nosram advances the timing by upto 30 degrees and in mode 8 the ecs is running at a constant 35,amps and from 1 to 7 is at a constant 10,amps, can someone confirm this or is this not true?

I am very happy with the performance of the Nosram SPEC esc, but the reliability does concern me.

Cheers TCCFM
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Old 04-30-2009, 04:00 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
People have to find this out themselves from facts, and not conjecture.
When no facts are provided, conjecture will rule I'm afraid
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
I appreciate you don't like what I say, but I don't like that you assume that all manufacturers have slapdash processes, and that when things go wrong it is down to the product, and not you. I choose to come on and say that, sorry if it's hard to take.
No-one is saying that the manufacturers are slapdash in their approach, but there have been a disproportionated number of failures in a short space of time and no-one is actually telling us what we are doing wrong or how to avoid such problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
The same issues that had you all running away from brushed motors still apply to BL motors. Whenever you get new software, do what we used to do with BR - go right down on the gearing (right down, real low), feel the motor on the track, and gear up in order to get nice, brisk acceleration off the turns, and a top-out on speed about half-way down the straight.
Those that have manged to dyno the motors in some way when contolled by the ESC have said that the motor rpm doubles flat out, reaching rpm the rotor will not support.
If I gear so that full speed is reached some way down the straight I risk having the rotor fly apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
We've arrived, within two years, back where we were with BR. Too much energy available (7.4v LiPo) for the system (especially in 10.5) and software/motor adjustments that have no sensible limit on timing, are taking the place of the brushes in generating too much heat. The main difference is it now costs almost twice as much to replace them, or to buy the latest specs.
I haven't had any failures in the last two years despite owning and testing various BL motors (mainly 10.5) and having four Nosram/LRP speed controllers

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
I hope that advice helps, and that Reto grants your wish of telling you exactly how the profiles 7 and 8 work.
Not really, because you haven't said anything we don't already know, what we need are some facts yet Burito/LRP/Nosram/yourself are unwilling to provide the information we need to help us out.

As I said before PM me the information and I will keep it to myself, better still, post on here what you've found, or advise me what you think I should do to make sure I don't have to play Russian roulette, better to ensure I don't have to spend a fortune to sort something out.

Skiddins
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Old 04-30-2009, 05:30 AM   #187
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Well this nice informative thread regarding the LRP SPX ESC has turned to crap.

Thanks. Thanks alot dudes.
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Old 04-30-2009, 05:48 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
Any similar experiments on Hackers?
Mine came with the timing ring well advanced from what I would expect, but I haven't looked inside to check where the actual sensors are in relation to the coils etc.

Skiddins
No I have not tested any hacker motors other than running some last year on the track.

Quote:
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EA,

Are you running the same settup in 17.5 1/12 scale? Duo middle hole on the stock spec?
Yes that is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Weiss View Post
Just wanted to quickly chime in here on how we set the timing on our motors because I have heard alot of different theories and figured someone might as well set the record straight

The timing is not set by setting the motor RPM or current draw to a certain point when running the motor on a constant voltage supply.

Using specialized equipment (custom hardware/fixtures, power supplies, oscilisocpes) we use a drive motor to spin the motor being callibrated up to a specific RPM, then using the rest of the equipment compare the coil output signal with that of the hall effect sensor output.

Using this information, we can then accurately set the true timing of the motor to the same setting motor after motor.

This allows us to make up for any production variance tolerances there may be in sensor position on the sensor board, magnet strength, etc.
Thanks for clearing that up Steve. But what I said about the timing ring is correct. The more retarded it comes set from Novak the more timing you can put into it with the sensor ring and more RPM/Wattage it will produce. Correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
I'll stop coming on here saying what I say when users come on here and accept responsibility for their actions, and not inferring that a product is faulty. As you can see from EA's post, and Steve Weiss' reply, there is very little fact around, and lots of urban myth. People have to find this out themselves from facts, and not conjecture.
While I was a little off on some of my post it was not completely wrong either. Ive seen it and dyno tested and track tested it. All motors can be fast reguardless when geared properly. Thats the Key to BL racing!

EA
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:36 AM   #189
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Well this nice informative thread regarding the LRP SPX ESC has turned to crap.

Thanks. Thanks alot dudes.
No, some people are discussing the speedo in question and it's still being informative. You never know, you might learn something
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Old 04-30-2009, 08:08 AM   #190
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Well this nice informative thread regarding the LRP SPX ESC has turned to crap.

Thanks. Thanks alot dudes.
The whole idea of the forum is to discus what we racers are finding out about this relatively NEW phase in the RC world, and need to address issues as they arise, so this thread is not turning to 'Crap' as you put it, its letting the powers to be what we as racers are finding out in the BL world, and I guess thats its opened their eyes a little to.

I have been in the motor trade here in the UK for 36 years, and have served my apprenticeship with Rolls Royce way back in 1973, and it's well known that they use the general public as guinea pigs to find out what problems that may arise from a new model of car, this is why they have 'Recalls' so that things then can be put right, im not suggesting for one minute that Nosram/LRP recall all said speedo's, but it would be nice to get some form of help to why this is happening.

At the moment its become more expensive than what was first thought going over to BL, as the BL motors/esc's cost us more than what BR motors and esc's were doing

Cheers TCCFM
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Old 04-30-2009, 08:18 AM   #191
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I like hearing about all the experiences others are having with the SPX.

Thankfully there are 4 of us locally that are using the SPX and we have had no issues.

You definitely have to be mindful of the gearing on the upper profiles though.
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Old 04-30-2009, 12:54 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Middle hole on timing and around a 5.0 to start with profile 7. Should get you close. Check the motor temp after a few laps to make sure your close.

EA
5.0 for 17.5? is that a typo? i thought the sweet spot is around 3.5 - 4.0 for 17.5... correct me if i'm wrong coz i'm gearing at 3.6
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Old 04-30-2009, 01:43 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
When no facts are provided, conjecture will rule I'm afraid


No-one is saying that the manufacturers are slapdash in their approach, but there have been a disproportionated number of failures in a short space of time and no-one is actually telling us what we are doing wrong or how to avoid such problems.



Those that have manged to dyno the motors in some way when contolled by the ESC have said that the motor rpm doubles flat out, reaching rpm the rotor will not support.
If I gear so that full speed is reached some way down the straight I risk having the rotor fly apart.



I haven't had any failures in the last two years despite owning and testing various BL motors (mainly 10.5) and having four Nosram/LRP speed controllers



Not really, because you haven't said anything we don't already know, what we need are some facts yet Burito/LRP/Nosram/yourself are unwilling to provide the information we need to help us out.

As I said before PM me the information and I will keep it to myself, better still, post on here what you've found, or advise me what you think I should do to make sure I don't have to play Russian roulette, better to ensure I don't have to spend a fortune to sort something out.

Skiddins
Read the posts on here carefully - people are telling you what you are doing wrong! And you have absolutely no chance of me telling you this, for the reasons I gave before.

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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
No I have not tested any hacker motors other than running some last year on the track.



Yes that is correct.



Thanks for clearing that up Steve. But what I said about the timing ring is correct. The more retarded it comes set from Novak the more timing you can put into it with the sensor ring and more RPM/Wattage it will produce. Correct?



While I was a little off on some of my post it was not completely wrong either. Ive seen it and dyno tested and track tested it. All motors can be fast reguardless when geared properly. Thats the Key to BL racing!

EA
See Skiddins, people are telling you what you're doing wrong...

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Originally Posted by over gear View Post
5.0 for 17.5? is that a typo? i thought the sweet spot is around 3.5 - 4.0 for 17.5... correct me if i'm wrong coz i'm gearing at 3.6
...and here's an example of a user who's heading fo a fall because they are not heeding the advice!

Come on guys, read carefully what Reto, EA and others are telling you. These guys know what they are talking about because they are doing their homework. Look carefully at posts and the answers are there.

In profiles 7 and 8 you HAVE to gear down a lot, and then you have to judge the performance on the track every bit as much as on the thermometer. Profiles 7 and 8 are doing things that you could never do with a BR, so much of what we have experienced before isn't valid.

I think this thread has taught me a lot more than I knew before, so roll on more questions, and more help from the likes of Reto and EA and Steve Weiss. Thanks guys, we owe you (if we're listening!! )
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Old 04-30-2009, 01:46 PM   #194
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5.0 for 17.5? is that a typo? i thought the sweet spot is around 3.5 - 4.0 for 17.5... correct me if i'm wrong coz i'm gearing at 3.6
3.6 is correct for the older speedo's or lower profile on the SPX. but if running an SPX in profile 7 this should be close. Again we dropped 3-5 teeth on carpet with foam tires when running on profile 7.

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Old 04-30-2009, 02:30 PM   #195
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is it best to leave the motors timing at zero and let the spx take care of it when using the upper profiles?thanks, fat
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