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Old 04-28-2009, 10:14 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by The Wease View Post
EA what about with a 13.5 duo with profile 7
I have not ran a 13.5 on rubber tires yet but would figure about 4 teeth less than a normal LRP speedo. On carpet we generally dropped 3-5 teeth when switching to the SPX on profile 7 with middle timing on the motors. I would assume that would follow suite on rubber tires too. Most important thing to do is check temp after a few laps and if OK run a few more laps and check again. If the temp is really high then make a change.

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Old 04-28-2009, 10:43 PM   #167
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@stillbill: paralleling capacitors is/was only required if the capacitor was of bad quality, with a good quality (single) capacitor it's not required and therefore not worth the hassle to add another one...
Understood...Thanks again.

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Old 04-28-2009, 10:52 PM   #168
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I have not ran a 13.5 on rubber tires yet but would figure about 4 teeth less than a normal LRP speedo. On carpet we generally dropped 3-5 teeth when switching to the SPX on profile 7 with middle timing on the motors. I would assume that would follow suite on rubber tires too. Most important thing to do is check temp after a few laps and if OK run a few more laps and check again. If the temp is really high then make a change.

EA
Thanks EA
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:21 PM   #169
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Good question Billy.

To add to the questions: I ran a 13.5 trinity duo with the spx and SMC 5200 lipo this weekend and tq'd. lap times are on par with all the other fast drivers, but I feel better lap times can be had at lower temps.

The track temp reached 131 F.

My spx temped at 135 F without heat sink.

My Duo temped at 180F +.

spx settings: 1,8,2,5. not sure exactly sure how to utilize the power setting.

I think this is too hot for the spx and duo.

The FDR was 4.95. Track size medium w/ front straight.

What temp ranges should I be aiming for with this combo.

I know there is much to take into consideration; I feel power setting, drag break and FDR are the most critical. I'm still trying to determine how and when the software is changing the timing on the motor.

Any input appreciated.

Cheerz
At a FDR of 5.26 with the same components and settings, I run a safer 160-165 degree motor temp. Your motor temp might be slowing you down a bit at half race.

Bill
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:36 PM   #170
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Reto,

I am using 0 degree advance on my 17.5 (for GT10) and 13.5 (for TC) motors. Also have them geared down very low (in comparison to TC ESCs) while using the 8 punch setting on my SPX's. The results have been great!

Shouldn't the SPX be allowed to do all of the motor timing advance to create the best scenario for on-road applications (i.e. initial acceleration and top speed)?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Thanks.

Bill
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Last edited by Still Bill; 04-28-2009 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:41 PM   #171
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I have now seen a few of the Nosram version of these ESC's die at club meetings, 3 that I know of.

And I have also seen 3 motors killed by them, they were all well within their temp tolerances, about 50-60 degC and geared down slightly.

The only thing these failures seem to have in common is the use of launch controls off the start line.

Do you have any idea's what might be causing these?

We have also noticed that instead of the usual 25 year warranty, the new versions come with a 90day warranty!!!

Worries about reliability?

Skiddins
I've seen so many Ferrari road cars crashed and baldy damaged. I won't buy this car as they seem very prone to crash, and are obviously dangerous. And their warranty is only 12 months in Europe, so clearly they are very unreliable. Bad car a Ferrari...

I have every idea what is causing it - the user. It is dangerous to give, or accept, guidance on set-ups with these speedos because they put the motors right on the edge, and a simple difference like car weight, driving style, ambient temperature or drive train condition will tip them over the edge.

This is like buying a Ferrari road car, and then asking Felippe Massa for braking points, corner gear speeds and traction control settings as a guide to driving the car round Monaco - do you really think you could get anywhere near what he does? Of course not. You start from something you know and you work up to his ability to get so much out of the same equipment. If you get it wrong, you crash and burn!

The universal advice seems to be to drop teeth from the pinion, and then monitor temps as you try to find more speed/acceleration/duration (delete as required!) from the car. It's time people looked to themselves first when things go wrong, and not post against the manufacturer.
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:45 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Still Bill View Post
Reto,

I am using 0 degree advance on my 17.5 (for GT10) and 13.5 (for TC) motors. Also have them geared down very low (in comparison to TC ESCs) while using the 8 punch setting on my SPX's. The results have been great!

Shouldn't the SPX be allowed to do all of the motor timing advance to create the best scenario for on-road applications (i.e. initial acceleration and top speed)?
There are limitations on what you're capable to do with software timing, the mechanical motor timing always plays a certain role. That will never change.

Btw, if you speak of "0 degree" advance in the motor, to which motor are you refering to then?
Because the so called "0 degree" position on the motor is never at real zero degrees! Most wye wound motors have ~30 mechanical timing built into the motor and this is what many motor manufacturers claim to be zero timing. But since not everyone uses the same standard it's hard to compare motors in regards of timing and also hard for speedo companies as all motors vary in mechanical timing and therefore act different to software timing!
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Old 04-29-2009, 06:46 AM   #173
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I have every idea what is causing it - the user. It is dangerous to give, or accept, guidance on set-ups with these speedos because they put the motors right on the edge, and a simple difference like car weight, driving style, ambient temperature or drive train condition will tip them over the edge.

This is like buying a Ferrari road car, and then asking Felippe Massa for braking points, corner gear speeds and traction control settings as a guide to driving the car round Monaco - do you really think you could get anywhere near what he does? Of course not. You start from something you know and you work up to his ability to get so much out of the same equipment. If you get it wrong, you crash and burn!

The universal advice seems to be to drop teeth from the pinion, and then monitor temps as you try to find more speed/acceleration/duration (delete as required!) from the car. It's time people looked to themselves first when things go wrong, and not post against the manufacturer.
What if the manufacturer has incorporated a design flaw by accident, loads of 'real' cars have had to have safety recalls!

I'm talking about drivers who have taken track records etc before using these ESC's and are very experienced, and kept a close eye on temps of both the ESC and motors.

As I mentioned before in the previous post, temps were monitored etc.

As for 'tipping them over the edge' if everything is running with operating parameters (read temps ) why would they fail!

Did you actually read my original post?

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Old 04-29-2009, 06:46 AM   #174
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There are limitations on what you're capable to do with software timing, the mechanical motor timing always plays a certain role. That will never change.

Btw, if you speak of "0 degree" advance in the motor, to which motor are you refering to then?
Because the so called "0 degree" position on the motor is never at real zero degrees! Most wye wound motors have ~30 mechanical timing built into the motor and this is what many motor manufacturers claim to be zero timing. But since not everyone uses the same standard it's hard to compare motors in regards of timing and also hard for speedo companies as all motors vary in mechanical timing and therefore act different to software timing!
Yes and you can see the differences in the timing when dyno'ing BL motors. Some of the sensor boards are moved to the advance side and its pretty obvious on the dyno!

The Novak motors are the easiest to tell which one has the sensor board advanced. You can look at the timing ring from the factory. The more "retarded" the timing ring is the more timing it has in the sensor board. They set all their motors from the factory to a pre-set RPM i believe.


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Old 04-29-2009, 06:50 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Yes and you can see the differences in the timing when dyno'ing BL motors. Some of the sensor boards are moved to the advance side and its pretty obvious on the dyno!

The Novak motors are the easiest to tell which one has the sensor board advanced. You can look at the timing ring from the factory. The more "retarded" the timing ring is the more timing it has in the sensor board. They set all their motors from the factory to a pre-set RPM i believe.


EA
Any similar experiments on Hackers?
Mine came with the timing ring well advanced from what I would expect, but I haven't looked inside to check where the actual sensors are in relation to the coils etc.

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Old 04-29-2009, 07:05 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Yes and you can see the differences in the timing when dyno'ing BL motors. Some of the sensor boards are moved to the advance side and its pretty obvious on the dyno!

The Novak motors are the easiest to tell which one has the sensor board advanced. You can look at the timing ring from the factory. The more "retarded" the timing ring is the more timing it has in the sensor board. They set all their motors from the factory to a pre-set RPM i believe.


EA
EA,

Are you running the same settup in 17.5 1/12 scale? Duo middle hole on the stock spec?
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:00 PM   #177
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When I first got my SPX It only lasted 3 laps then quit working. I sent it in and they replaced it with a new one for $100 . So good luck with getting a free replacement if the FETS are fried. Mine was only a week old. I was running 13.5 10* timing on the motor
and geared at 4.8fdr and on profile 7 or 8
Mike, what brand of motor were you running when the speed control got fried.

Bob
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:30 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
What if the manufacturer has incorporated a design flaw by accident, loads of 'real' cars have had to have safety recalls!

I'm talking about drivers who have taken track records etc before using these ESC's and are very experienced, and kept a close eye on temps of both the ESC and motors.

As I mentioned before in the previous post, temps were monitored etc.

As for 'tipping them over the edge' if everything is running with operating parameters (read temps ) why would they fail!

Did you actually read my original post?

Open eyes, engage brain, then comment
I have now seen a few of the Nosram version of these ESC's die at club meetings, 3 that I know of.So what. An observation, not a fact that has relevance to the situation of user competence.

And I have also seen 3 motors killed by them, they were all well within their temp tolerances, about 50-60 degC and geared down slightly.An example of correlation being cause (as in loud music causes acne because one sees young people listening to loud music have acne). There is no evidence that the speedo killed the motor of itself, or whether the motor was unable to take the settings and gearing input by the user.

The only thing these failures seem to have in common is the use of launch controls off the start line.Again, no evidence, just conjecture.

Do you have any idea's what might be causing these?I have plenty of ideas, and through checking the speedo on an oscilloscope, I know what's causing these problems. However, Reto chooses not to tell you what is happening, so I choose not to reveal something he clearly thinks is intellectual property to LRP. You'll put that down to a cop-out on my part, so I'll have to live with that. I work in an industry where IP is key to competitive advantage, so I know how important this is to LRP.

We have also noticed that instead of the usual 25 year warranty, the new versions come with a 90day warranty!!!See the above - when you put clever technology in the hands of people who do no homework, and have no desire to find out how to handle what's been provided, what would you do?!! (OK, that's harsh, but when you give people the chance to run this stuff right to the edge, and know what the average (or even lap-record-level!) user would do, I'd put the warranty on 'minimum'! )

Worries about reliability? Nope, worries about users!!

Skiddins, what LRP have done means to me that simple temp monitoring is not going to be useful, and that seems to be supported by your observations. I don't use temps alone, because that's not telling me what's now going on. I can easily understand how these failures have happened, and they are because users are assuming that the BL motor technology, which is static relative to speedo technology, means that the speedo technology will affect the motor in the same way all the time - it doesn't!

As I said, fault here lies with the user, not the speedo and motor manufacturer. Since the vast majority of people are using this excellent product without any problems, you tell me what the difference is between your observations and ours? Methinks it's not the product.

I read your post carefully, and that's why I said what I said. HTH
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:43 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Yes and you can see the differences in the timing when dyno'ing BL motors. Some of the sensor boards are moved to the advance side and its pretty obvious on the dyno!

The Novak motors are the easiest to tell which one has the sensor board advanced. You can look at the timing ring from the factory. The more "retarded" the timing ring is the more timing it has in the sensor board. They set all their motors from the factory to a pre-set RPM i believe.


EA
Just wanted to quickly chime in here on how we set the timing on our motors because I have heard alot of different theories and figured someone might as well set the record straight

The timing is not set by setting the motor RPM or current draw to a certain point when running the motor on a constant voltage supply.

Using specialized equipment (custom hardware/fixtures, power supplies, oscilisocpes) we use a drive motor to spin the motor being callibrated up to a specific RPM, then using the rest of the equipment compare the coil output signal with that of the hall effect sensor output.

Using this information, we can then accurately set the true timing of the motor to the same setting motor after motor.

This allows us to make up for any production variance tolerances there may be in sensor position on the sensor board, magnet strength, etc.
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Old 04-29-2009, 02:54 PM   #180
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Mike, what brand of motor were you running when the speed control got fried.

Bob
Duo motor was fine took the SPX out and put in TC spec and everything was fine. It was operator error that smoked the esc (I do believe)
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