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Old 11-03-2003, 02:28 PM   #1
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Default BRUSHLESS STOCK in STOCK CLASS.

Here ya go guys, Continue the discussion here.
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Old 11-03-2003, 02:34 PM   #2
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i always belive the idea of stock class is to keep the race fair, meaning it's more skill then motor.. brushless stock must has definate advantage over the stock motors( or there will not be brushless motor) that we re all used to race. so i feel it's unfair for someone who run the brushless in the stock class unless everyone is running the same brushless..if a racer really can win, he / she could win with a decent stock motor no matter what..
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Old 11-03-2003, 03:04 PM   #3
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i've watched a few guys run the brushless stock profile vs. a regular brushed 27T stock. the brushless definitely had it's advantages...especially shooting out of corners and on the straights.


stock class should only be stock 27T brushed motors.
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Old 11-03-2003, 03:09 PM   #4
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I ran mine for the first time last week, and it is unbelieveable out of the hole! Top speed is almost the same with an edge to the brushed guys, but in the infield you can really get the advantage racing corner to corner. Our track has enough guys that starting tomorrow night we're going to run a seperate brushless class. I think the two should be seperated if there are enough guys to run a stock and a brushless class. If not, then run them together, as you still need to DRIVE the car with this much power. I've never run modified before, so it's a really different experience. With the setup I had on my car, it was actually faster with a brushed motor, but I've done some tuning this week to get the car to handle better. We shall see.
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Old 11-03-2003, 03:53 PM   #5
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Novak should introduce a profile for their brushless motor whch is the same as a current brushed 27T. Brushles users should be allowed to run this alongside current motors in stock class.

In my opinion the sooner we start using BL the better.
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Old 11-03-2003, 04:02 PM   #6
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They have a whole different motor now, you can use it with the SS speed control, but the motor has peformance comparable to a "good" stock motor. The big difference is that you can run forever without wearing it out and making brush manufacturers rich.

I'm pretty new to this stuff, but isn't that how the "stock" class started? I have an SS now, and I regularly get passed on the straights by the "stock" guys. I'm not a very good driver, but I know how to squeeze the trigger pretty well.
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Old 11-03-2003, 04:10 PM   #7
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They allow brushless in Stock Class here for the outdoor track. They have the low end advantage, but not the top end. They are limited to a 6.5 ratio here for the Brushless in the limited mode. So I really think it's track design which would determine who is faster. So far a Monster Stock holds track record. A good set of batteries also shows up in a Brushless motor more so than in a Brushed. Tons of torque. But anyways, once again we limit gearing for the Brushless to try and even things out. It's a trade off, and with our track design, it's very close.
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Old 11-03-2003, 04:52 PM   #8
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The title of this thread is "Brushless STOCK allowed in stock class"
It's widely known and pretty well accepted that the SS 5800 system appears to be more like a spec 19t than a stock 27t when it's set on the lowest setting.
This thread is aimed more at the SS 4300 system which is made to operate within typical stock motor parameters.
I simply do not understand what the argument is!! This is a motor that operates with similar performance to a 27t stock motor!! I agree that it is at the top end of the scale in stock performance but isn't that what all you "tuners" are out there doing. Different brushes, different springs, comm cutting, zapping, comm drops. Why should a brushless motor user not be allowed to run with brushed motors??? Just because a few people have decided that THEIR version of stock class requires people to tune motors. That may be fun for some but it's very frustrating for others. What you're basically saying is that it's ok for the guy with the most tuning, and the obvious equipment it takes to do it,
to have an advantage. That doesn't make any sense !!! Just because a brushless motor requires so much less"tuning" to be competitive shouldn't exclude it from racing against OTHER stock drivers.
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Old 11-03-2003, 05:01 PM   #9
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If you're referring to my post...I own a couple ss5800 motors now, and I want to run one of the 4300 motors at an upcoming race in the stock class. They can supposedly be used with the original speed controller.

BTW -- the 5800 on the "stock" setting is really lame. It's like a rev-limiter that just kicks in at 24000 or so...you can actually see the car unload when the limiter kicks in 20-30 feet down the road. I'd rather have the actual "stock" motor than one with a hard cut-out.
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Old 11-03-2003, 05:20 PM   #10
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The answer is most definitly "no" . The entire point of the Stock class, is that there is a limit as to what you can run, and all racers in the class are bound to the same motor, batt, and car limitations. If you are running a brushless motor, it is no longer considered stock and would therefor not qualify for the stock class. Technically, if you are running a brushles in a stock class at a track running under ROAR rules, you would be considered a cheater.

Just because you don't know how to properly clean and tune a stock motor, doesn't mean you get to "get out" of motor maintanance, and run a brushless. You are then stepping out from behind the bounds of why the class exists in the first place.
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Old 11-03-2003, 05:21 PM   #11
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Hi Guys, just so everyone has some facts to go with.

The Super Sport Brushless ESC and the SS5800 motor is what was first available from Novak.

Soon BUT NOT YET there will be a an SS4300 motor. It is lower performance than the SS5800 even in the unlimited profile. this is just the motor to be used with the Super Sport Brushless ESC.

The Super Sport and the SS5800 are faster than a stock motor in any profile. By a lot. We just missed our test points is all. We could try to change the software but that would be "Service Nightmare" so we arent' planning on any changes to the ESC. The limited mode is still a bit too fast for stock class because folks gear them to the moon for top speed. It takes a little punch feel away, but it is still on par with a decent 19 turn motor.

The Purpose of the SS4300 is to offer a motor that can be used in the normal unlimited profile and still offer lower speed. We tried to get very close to a stock motor, but you can only remove soo much power. Nothing will be exact, that's pretty impossible considering that all the stock racers "tune" motors differently. The idea here is to offer a motor that stock racers can use for practice and racing where alloud. You will get significanly more runtime with the SS4300 over the SS5800, and not have to deal with the RPM limiter. Also the ESC temp is greatly reduced with the lower power motor.

We've run the 4300 a few different ways, it can still be "over-geared" for top speed, but you loose a lot of the punch feel, so it's a trade off.

We are hoping that tracks allow the Use of the SS4300 and the Super Sport ESC in the regular Stock Class, if they are an "Unfair" advantage, we would simply recomend a Final Gear Ratio Rule for BL competitors. Most tracks can easily keep tabs on that sort of thing.

We are all just in a wierd transition time before brushless technology is more widely used/raced/sold. At the recent IFMAR worlds there was an informal meeting to propose some rules on Brushless Technology for future "sanctioned" rule books and events. With the rule structure, the two types of motors should be fairly competive regarding on track speeds.

I don't know where I was going with this, just wanted to get some facts from the source posted.
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Old 11-03-2003, 05:28 PM   #12
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So there is no "stock" version yet?, just the original SS detuned to run with stock motors?
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Old 11-03-2003, 05:36 PM   #13
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Joe, not really referring to your post. This whole discussion got started at another thread. The problem was that some people were talking about the SS5800 and others were talking about the 4300.
The beginning of this thread was going the same way so I thought I'd put everybody straight. This thread is in regards to the SS4300 BL "stock" motor system.
Joe and you other BL users. Keep using those systems guy's.....BL is here to stay and just because we don't have to tweak our motors or buy alot of equipment to get top performance out of them doesn't mean we should be excluded from racing against brushed motors. We should take an active stand against any race that excludes us. BL acceptance will only be hurt if we allow a select few to force BL users into they're own group. We should be pushing to be adopted into the mainstream races. A brushless stock motor is nothing more than a different motor choice. Saying that a BL driver won a race because he/she didn't have to teardown and tweak their motor in between heats is just plain foolish. If someone honestly believes there is a significant performance edge with a BL, prove it!! If you win your case than I for one will gladly go race against other BL racers in a seperate class.
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Old 11-03-2003, 05:46 PM   #14
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Are you new to racing Evoracer? If you honestly don't know of any advantage on a BL over a brushed motor, then I don't think you should participate in the conversation.

THEE most basic advantage, is the fact that there are no brushes! Your brush springs pushing on the brushes, forcing contact between the brushes and the comm, generates a ton of friction and a ton of heat greatly reducing the amount of torque put to the tires, and therefor reducing acceleration. So simply limited the RPM of a BL motor doesn't correctly compensate for the unfair advantage of a BL motor. They simply can't compete in the same class.

the ENTIRE point of the stock class, is to get all the racers to run the exact same thing. If you run a BL motor, you are completely negating the reason the "stock" class is even there for.

By your logic, I should be allowed to run 7 cells, just because I don't want to bother with fine tuning how I charge and maintain my batteries.
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Old 11-03-2003, 05:52 PM   #15
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Holycow, I don't know where you ever got the idea that "stock" class placed limitations on batts, car type or tuning and the "same" motor.
I race stock exclusively and other than TCS races, I've rarely been to many club or shop races where they have "handout" motor or battery rules. As for the car, I've raced against guy's who bought cars from factory team drivers so I doubt it's a box stock chassis. I have never seen any rules regarding the necessity to do cleaning or tuning of your motor before you race it. I personally know of drivers who bring at least 3 "qualifier" motors and a "main" motor with them to races and all they do is change motors in between heats. I also know guys who believe that a new motor is the way to go so they run a new motor for a qualifier or 2 and then switch to another brand new motor. Under your vision of stock rules, that shouldn't be fair either.
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