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Old 11-04-2003, 11:33 PM   #121
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Holycow, yes, you're probably right. I was a bit out of line there. Maybe too much Coffee.
Some tracks don't actually tech motors, we've seen many cases were motors are "drill ballanced" to the shaft. This allows some pretty large performance ganes. This is somewhat unfair and cheating, but still with a "legal motor" by some standards. I guess this is less common though.

Here's another pitch, I'm sorry, I can't help myself. It's late and we've just had a blast running Micros.

We are trying to offer a very easy to use and easy to race system that will attract folks back to electric racing. Integration with current race formats will be important of course. You would be surprised how much more enjoyable the "night at the track" is when you aren't tuning your motor all night.

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Old 11-05-2003, 12:34 AM   #122
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Default Novak here is a suggestion

If Novak or any other company offering a brushless "stock" system wanted to get these out into mainstream racing faster, I suggest teaming up with one of the major RC car manufacturers and putting the system into a ready to run car.
I think if it was placed into a ready to run more newbies would have them. These newbies may eventually want to race and what race director is going to turn away a novice driver because he doesn't have a legal "stock" motor.
Growth of rc racing will come from newbies/novice drivers. It will be them that eventually dictates the direction of rc racing. So get it into their hands.
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Old 11-05-2003, 12:38 AM   #123
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that's a wonderful suggestion, novak already has ties to the E-maxx in RTR form...

I say hit losi up, they usually bundle JR XR2/GM V3R equipment, both top notch IMO for a RTR setup, but switch that GM V3R and crappy motor for a novak brushless (with a slower, limited throttle profile, no need for a novice to demolish their car on the first run!) and that would be all most people would need to get into racing.

It's always funny to see a newbie bring a RTR associated or Traxxas car to the track and enter stock class, only to be told they need to pull the 19/20t *"stock"* motor and buy a real stock motor (Which actually probably performs better) in order to race
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Old 11-05-2003, 12:39 AM   #124
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RTRs should be packaged with 27t stock motors...
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Old 11-05-2003, 12:44 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by holycow
RTRs should be packaged with 27t stock motors...
Not if you are manufacturer wanting to make money. Bigger, better, faster, and easier to maintain always sells as opposed to slower and legal.
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Old 11-05-2003, 10:47 AM   #126
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Default Re: Novak here is a suggestion

Quote:
Originally posted by jbackslash

I suggest teaming up with one of the major RC car manufacturers and putting the system into a ready to run car.
My problem with this is that most "Newbies" want SPEED in their RTR cars more than anything else.

"How FAST does it go?" is usually the first question asked by the R/C newcomer. This is why each new RTR that comes out usually has a FASTER/BIGGER Engine/Motor that it's predecessor.
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Old 11-05-2003, 11:23 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blind
Bubbles: The point of the *stock* brushless is to have a zero maintanence motor that has the same performance as an average dyno tuned stock motor.

I agree, brushless setups such as a hacker C50 or the Novak SS5800 should be in AT LEAST the mod class, if not a seperate class of its own. But if a brushless motor is DESIGNED to compete with stock brushed motors, why kick it out to yet another class?
But, if you reread Charlie's post on page 1, he says that it's close, but not spot on. [paraphrase] "You can only remove so much power." [/paraphrase]

Charlie's admitted that they're not the same. So, how fair is it to shove them in the same class? I say, throw those brushless systems into the mod class, where "anything goes." Run the limited or unlimited profile, whatever you're most comfortable with. Before you say, "That's not fair, the limited profile doesn't stand a chance against a 7 turn...," remeber the argument you're making for brushless systems being able to run in a brushed stock class.

It's the same reason that they don't run mod and stock together, stock and Mabuchi/Johnson 540's together or mod/540's together. They're different.

Rob
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Old 11-05-2003, 12:01 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by losirob
But, if you reread Charlie's post on page 1, he says that it's close, but not spot on. [paraphrase] "You can only remove so much power." [/paraphrase]

Charlie's admitted that they're not the same. So, how fair is it to shove them in the same class? I say, throw those brushless systems into the mod class, where "anything goes." Run the limited or unlimited profile, whatever you're most comfortable with. Before you say, "That's not fair, the limited profile doesn't stand a chance against a 7 turn...," remeber the argument you're making for brushless systems being able to run in a brushed stock class.

It's the same reason that they don't run mod and stock together, stock and Mabuchi/Johnson 540's together or mod/540's together. They're different.

Rob
a little clarification - maybe - charlie was mentioning that the current ss5800 bl motor is not the same. they are about to release the ss4300 bl motor which was designed to perform as a good 27t stock motor. the 5800 can not compete in my opinion with a mod motor and should not run against 27t motors, but the controversy is should the new 4300 motor be permitted to run with 27t motors. i've had the opportunity to run the new 4300 motor and raced in the local pro-stock class and my experience is that it truely does run like a well tuned stock motor. its is very nice not having to thrash on motors during an event. but should they run together? will it help r/c racing attract new racers? many questions are unanswered surrounding this but in my opinion they can run together, and i could be wrong.

my only other comment would be that running the bl motor you do not spend all your money on brushes, springs etc.. allowing you to spend that money on other performance things such as tires, inserts, and other hop up items that may make you faster in the end. plus the time you spend reworking the multiple motors during an event can be used to improve your setup and driving skills.
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Old 11-05-2003, 12:20 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by holycow
RTRs should be packaged with 27t stock motors...
LOL...right...like you could actually even sorta, kinda be even remotely competitive, speed-wise, with an out of the package "stock" motor.

Maybe you could sell the RTR bundled with the comm lathe, 2 pounds of brushes and a few cans of motor spray, along with a 20 page manual on tweaking motors and big red sticker on the roof cautioning the newbie not to run it more than 5 minutes continously...so he/she won't burn it up

I'm sure it would just fly off the shelves...a motor that only lasts 1/3 as long as the battery.

That's what I don't get about you "stock" guys....you guys are running tweaked motors that are significantly faster than an out of the package "stock" motor, but you're afraid to compete with an actual "untweakable" motor that's a little slower than yours.

Last edited by Turbo Joe; 11-05-2003 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 11-05-2003, 12:44 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by rocketron
a little clarification - maybe - charlie was mentioning that the current ss5800 bl motor is not the same. they are about to release the ss4300 bl motor which was designed to perform as a good 27t stock motor.
Here's Charlie's comments, cut-n-pasted from his response:

Quote:
Originally posted by Charlieb
The Purpose of the SS4300 is to offer a motor that can be used in the normal unlimited profile and still offer lower speed. We tried to get very close to a stock motor, but you can only remove soo much power.
The way I read it, he's referring to the SS4300, and not the SS5800.

Rob
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Old 11-05-2003, 12:46 PM   #131
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Default BRUSHLESS STOCK in STOCK CLASS.

Guys;

OK, lets take this in a slightly different direction (not topic).

As all of the seasoned "Stock" Motor racers know, there are wide variations in power output among identical Motor samples. Even with "Tweaking" a very small % of Motors are simply much better than the average.

So that said, where do these Protoype BL "Stock" Motors fall in that respect. Are we comparing an average sample or better than average sample to our Brushed "Stock" Motors? Is the manufacturing process more refined to produce less sample variation unit to unit?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would produce a BL "Stock" Motor that on average would produce LESS power than what is already out there.
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Old 11-05-2003, 01:05 PM   #132
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Regardless, this topic will never be fully solved. Brushless appears to take away the motor tuning aspect. A good thing? Maybe. To the novice who knows nothing about tuning motors, this is a good thing. To the experienced racer who can take a stock motor that's "so-so," and make it better, this isn't such a big deal. One thing that people who support brushless tend to yell from their proverbial soapbox is that brushless levels the playing field. Well, sort of.

For one, in any mass-manufactured scenario, you'll almost never get two pieces of equipment that perform the same. There will almost always be differences in terms of performance. In the case of motors, maybe one of the winds is aligned at a different angle, or looser, or tighter, or whatever. These differences translate into differences in torque and RPM's.

Another thing to consider is this. Brushless supporters claim that "I'll only need to buy this one piece of equipment and I can run it forever." Heat will still kill these motors. Heat will weaken the magnets. Hear can damage the delicate electronics necessary for a sensored system? How expensive is it to replace a motor in a BL system? Anyone who thinks that a piece of equipment exists that lasts forever (with moving parts, no less) is kidding themself.

Motor tuning is about more than making the motor last longer. It's also about tailoring the torque, RPM's and acceleration of the motor by using different brushes and springs. It also allows an avenue to compensate for those "manufacturing" differences that are inherent in any mass-produced object.

What's the brushless owner to do if he gets a "dud" of a brushless motor? He can't change anything in it. He's either stuck with the motor he's got (while all of his friends blow by him on the back straight or leave him lagging behind through the infield) or he buys a new motor, and hopes that it's got what he's looking for performance-wise.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea of brushless motors has merit. I just don't think it's all that the early supporters are seem to think it is.

I'll be waiting until the brushless motors are considerably more mainstream before I buy one, that's for sure.

Rob
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Old 11-05-2003, 01:08 PM   #133
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Default Re: BRUSHLESS STOCK in STOCK CLASS.

Quote:
Originally posted by popsracer
Guys;

OK, lets take this in a slightly different direction (not topic).

As all of the seasoned "Stock" Motor racers know, there are wide variations in power output among identical Motor samples. Even with "Tweaking" a very small % of Motors are simply much better than the average.

So that said, where do these Protoype BL "Stock" Motors fall in that respect. Are we comparing an average sample or better than average sample to our Brushed "Stock" Motors? Is the manufacturing process more refined to produce less sample variation unit to unit?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would produce a BL "Stock" Motor that on average would produce LESS power than what is already out there.
i agree with your comment about LESS power above, my understanding of the purpose of the 4300 bl motor was to produce a motor that is comparable to a tuned stock motor 27t - now does that mean less power? less power than the 5800 bl motor? we'll have to ask charlie that one.

variation from one bl motor to the next in production process is a valid point to consider - again my experience is primarily with the 5800 having used several during testing and competing against other 5800's is that they are extremely close in performance. The key variable is the winding as any elec motor. But this is the only real variable unless a bearing goes bad or some other failure. the magnetisum of the rotor could be another concern but since i've been running bl since feb 2003 this has not been a problem and i have been racing twice a week with them. But its my belief that the variation is very insignificant on the current bl motors.

again this is my opinion and i could be wrong
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Old 11-05-2003, 02:16 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by losirob
Regardless, this topic will never be fully solved.... .
Rob
This was the best post so far.

When it comes to use competative racers, the 1 or 5% performance difference in two identical BL motors, and not being able to tune it up, would be enough to drive all of us nuts.

Lets say me and a fellow racer both go get identical BL motors, but because there is going to be a natural difference in performance, if he got the motor that is slightly faster, I won't be satisfied until I know that my motor is doing ALL it can possibly do. That is the one advantage of the brushed system, is that you can change and tweak certain features to get your desired results. You can't do this with a BL. I would end up buying another one hoping it was cream of the crop.

THEN... what you get is a tiny % of the stock BL motors that do signifigantly better then the average, and they will end up getting pulled off the shelf for the pros just like the 1.19 and 1.20 gp3300 batteries do now.
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Old 11-05-2003, 02:47 PM   #135
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You know, I'm beginning to think that making BL a seperate class in all categories might just be the best thing.
BL will never get a fair shake if we push to integrate ourselves with brushed motor classes. We'll constantly be fighting to gain recognition and infighting will keep us from doing what really needs to be done........showcase the benefits of brushless systems, educate new drivers and interested experienced drivers and last but not least, race our brains out !!!

After all is said and done, seperating ourselves might just be much more advantageous than continuing this wasted battle. Look at it this way. With no interference from the brushed users, we are free to develop any variety of programs that will promote BL use. Also, we won't be wasting time getting frustrated and angry. If we maintain a positive attitude, that will end up being passed on to those that we recruit or convert !!!

So what do you think BL believers??? Lets stop beating ourselves up........These guys may have done us the biggest favor possible by convincing us to stay a seperate and unified group.
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