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Old 11-04-2003, 10:49 AM   #76
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in the roar rules it states that only 27turrn brused motors to be used for stock.
that is it.
when they change it to bl as well then we can but until then shouldnt the answere be no bl motors cannot be used with 27 t brushed class.
just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 11-04-2003, 10:51 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by howard hudson
lets just say it did happen and I am not going to drop any names. I didnt even run stock that day and it pissed me off and it should not have happened
Well obviously if your track has rules/classes for that then you have every right to be upset, as would I... whats the point of rules if no one follows them?

Just remember every track has its own rules... my local track allows brushless on "stock mode" to run in the stock class and it has worked out well for us (granted we are more fun oriented than "wanting-to-get-sponsored-oriented" so our rules a generally more easy going)
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Old 11-04-2003, 10:54 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by trf racer
in the roar rules it states that only 27turrn brused motors to be used for stock.
that is it.
when they change it to bl as well then we can but until then shouldnt the answere be no bl motors cannot be used with 27 t brushed class.
just my 2 cents worth.
Thats only if your club follows roar rules
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Old 11-04-2003, 10:57 AM   #79
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Originally posted by Cracker78
Thats only if your club follows roar rules
true.
so if they dont why not just try it and see whats said
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Old 11-04-2003, 10:59 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cracker78
Well obviously if your track has rules/classes for that then you have every right to be upset, as would I... whats the point of rules if no one follows them?

Just remember every track has its own rules... my local track allows brushless on "stock mode" to run in the stock class and it has worked out well for us (granted we are more fun oriented than "wanting-to-get-sponsored-oriented" so our rules a generally more easy going)
thats fine. but all of of the racers there are aware of that right? was not the case here
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:01 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cracker78
Well obviously if your track has rules/classes for that then you have every right to be upset, as would I... whats the point of rules if no one follows them?

Just remember every track has its own rules... my local track allows brushless on "stock mode" to run in the stock class and it has worked out well for us (granted we are more fun oriented than wanting-to-get-sponsored-oriented" so are rules a generally more easy going)
the SS5800 in stock mod is faster as charlie mentioned than a 27t stock - if your allowing this you and the other racers will be very happy with the new SS4300 as it actually compares to a tuned 27t motor and it does not require the limited mode as the motor is the limiter.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:09 AM   #82
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Howard Hudson:
Yes you are correct. Everyone at our club is well aware of it. I agree with you that if there is a rule against it, then that rule should be followed. And its even worse if the person hide the fact he wasnt following rules. However I think that beef should be taken up with your race director and that individual.

TRF:
We do run the bl and brushed mixed at our track. Granted we arent the most skilled bunch of people in the world, but we can hang in there with most. Right now we only have 2 brushless drivers (with a possible third contemplating... i know cause i currently do all his comm cutting)... the brushless system sure has the torque out of the corner, but the rev limiter seems to be a tad on the low end because they appear to max it out about half way down the straight. They probably just need to gear up. But overall, the racing has stayed the same.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:10 AM   #83
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I'm not going to beat a dead horse here.
Holycow,,,,,apparently you didn't notice the number of times I made sure to mention that I was referring only to the 4300 "stock" motor. You also didn't notice that I made sure to mention that I agreed with everybody regarding the SS5800.....it clearly doesn't belong in stock. The 4300 is coming out shortly...makes no difference if none are being raced now.
As for being clueless.....I haven't made any personal remarks against you and I'd appreciate you not making them against me. You "super competitive" drivers can build motors to your hearts content...nobody is stopping you. But nowhere is it written that building or tweaking motors is essential or required to run in any class. So why make it an issue?? Bl motors don't require tuning to be just as fast as your tuned motor......if it's not a requirement then why hold it against us??? ROAR hasn't approved the use of brushless motors and that is understood. That doesn't mean they won't be petitioned to accept them. This is new technology so when the time comes, they will have to re-write their description of stock motors.
As for you proving that BL has an advantage......"they don't have brushes" doesn't exactly prove that there's an advantage. I'll ask the question again since you missed it the first time......Even if there is an advantage...how much?? Comparable to a dyno tuned motor over a regular one??? Comparable to a Putnam tuned over a factory dyno tuned?? Or maybe comparable to one of your "gotta have anything and everything" motors over the guy with a NIP Putnam motor???
Tell us just how much this "advantage" you speak of is worth.

Quite honestly, the more I think about this, the more irrelevant it becomes. BL is happening just like it happened in the RC Aircraft field. It won't matter how you feel because in the grand scheme of things, it's all about business. The manufacturers of all those pieces that go into our brushed motors are slowly phasing them out because the need for BL motors is increasing. RC is such an extremely small market for electric motors. In the end, it won't be us rc drivers that will change the market, it will be the various companies that supply cans, magnets, armatures, brushes , etc. Lots of machinery uses electric motors and BL is more efficient, produces more power and obviously is a better long term value.
Dude, it isn't me you have to worry about !!! BL is coming and neither you nor ROAR will have anything to say about it.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:12 AM   #84
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Rocketron:
Actually I think the brushless owners will like them just as much because the major complaint i hear from our brushless people is that the car drives "weird" when it hits the rev limit. I think everyone will be happy when this comes out
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:23 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evoracer
[B] But nowhere is it written that building or tweaking motors is essential or required to run in any class. So why make it an issue??
Nobody is making that an issue. You are still missing the point.


Quote:
As for you proving that BL has an advantage......"they don't have brushes" doesn't exactly prove that there's an advantage.
Since you seem to conveniently overlook what people are saying here, as you are obviously still missing the point... here is my explination of the brushless advantage:

"THEE most basic advantage, is the fact that there are no brushes! Your brush springs pushing on the brushes, forcing contact between the brushes and the comm, generates a ton of friction and a ton of heat greatly reducing the amount of torque put to the tires, and therefor reducing acceleration. So simply limited the RPM of a BL motor doesn't correctly compensate for the unfair advantage of a BL motor. They simply can't compete in the same class."

So in lamen's terms, just for you, There is signifigantly less drag and heat generated in a brushless, translating into a noticable torque and acceleration advantage regardless of where the RPMs are limited to.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:23 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cracker78
Rocketron:
Actually I think the brushless owners will like them just as much because the major complaint i hear from our brushless people is that the car drives "weird" when it hits the rev limit. I think everyone will be happy when this comes out
They are in production and currently the holdup is packaging. But look for the SS4300 in the near future. BTW the motor will be sold seperate so those with a current ESC will be able to switch over easily.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:25 AM   #87
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: charlie's post

Quote:
Originally posted by howard hudson
but that does not make it ok for the average joe to go out and buy a bl system and run it in a stock class when there was a BL class to run in at the same event or does it
As an "average Joe"...

I went out and bought a brushless when I found out that brushed motors wear out very quickly.

Newbie with a brushless -- does he race with the experts because of his motor?

I think CharlieB has it pretty much right . Lap times are what counts, not the motor you run. If I'm getting killed by a few seconds (often more) per lap, should you really worry whether I have brushes or not?

What I'm really surprised about is that all you hard-core brush guys think everyone who just wants to have fun without rebuilding motors is or wants to be cheating. I for one am not looking for some advantage on the track. I just want to be in the hunt without spending wads of cash and hours of time rebuilding stuff. For me, it's a hobby.

I'd rather assume that everyone that goes out to an R/C race is there to have fun...maybe there's an inverse relationship between the level of suspicion and the rewards. The races I've gone to have no trophies...there's no points...no money...nothing but (maybe) a picture on some web page.

And BTW -- there are many, many different types of "big car" racing where they largely take the "motor tweaking" out of the game.

They have spec motor classes (buy it from one place, sealed up) in roundy-round, brackets in drag racing (17 second car runs with a 7 second dragster) and all sorts of "Index" classes, where everyone runs against a certain time (9,90, 8.90, etc.)...closest to the time and get the win light. IROC is entirely "spec" (chassis and engine), a lot of the offroad classes have spec chassis or motors or both. Start winning a few races in off road and you get the rules changed on you fast. "Heads-up" or "Run whatcha' brung" is VERY rare and very expensive to do.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:34 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by holycow
Nobody is making that an issue. You are still missing the point.




Since you seem to conveniently overlook what people are saying here, as you are obviously still missing the point... here is my explination of the brushless advantage:

"THEE most basic advantage, is the fact that there are no brushes! Your brush springs pushing on the brushes, forcing contact between the brushes and the comm, generates a ton of friction and a ton of heat greatly reducing the amount of torque put to the tires, and therefor reducing acceleration. So simply limited the RPM of a BL motor doesn't correctly compensate for the unfair advantage of a BL motor. They simply can't compete in the same class."

So in lamen's terms, just for you, There is signifigantly less drag and heat generated in a brushless, translating into a noticable torque and acceleration advantage regardless of where the RPMs are limited to.
I think you're actually the one missing the point here.

The 4300 isn't limited -- it's less powerful and it turns less RPM per volt (4300 vs. 5800) than an SS. In "layman's terms" it makes the *same* power as a brushed.

In that sense, simply not having the brushes inside the motor isn't any advantage at all...you guys can still tweak all you want.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:43 AM   #89
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"THEE most basic advantage, is the fact that there are no brushes!

how much of an advantage do you get without the brushes and if any how small or big?
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:45 AM   #90
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No i DO get the point. the point is, you don't run two totally different types of cars (or powerplants) the the same class. THAT IS WHY CLASSES EXIST.

What happens when some company produces a brushed 27t stocker that is just AWESOME... call it 25% more power then before, and now all of a sudden, all the brushless guys have a HUGE disadvantage? You wont be having any fun as a backmarker, 2 laps down against guys you drive just as well as.

What if some new cell came out that produced 2 volts each, required 0 maintanance, produced 0 voltage depression, and you could run a single pack over and over again in a single day regardless of heat. You couldn't run that cell either! Just because its cheaper (only have to buy one) and would require no maintanance (no V depression) doesnt mean you can run it in a spec class that says "6subC 7.2 battery packs".

I don't care if it IS cheaper and easier... you cant run it.

same with the BL motors.
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