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Old 11-04-2003, 02:21 AM   #46
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why not have
stock brushless [limited to 22000 rpm]
normal brushless [no limit]
just like
27t brushed motors
23t brushed motors
19turn brushed motors
modified brushed motors.

would this work.
also it seems to me there are toooooooo many brushed motor classes.
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Old 11-04-2003, 05:21 AM   #47
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Won't make any difference trf......It seems there are just going to be a few people out there who feel more comfortable knowing they might have an edge over another driver if tweaking a motor is still part of the game. Take tweaking out of the equation and it makes them nervous. I still see that not one person has clarified why they feel a "stock" brushless motor has such a great advantage over a brushed motor.
It's really weird because in other threads about BL, many guys are saying"BL can't compare with the performance of brushed motors. Give me the chance to tune my motor and I'll show you why BL isn't worth the money"
And yet in this thread, everybody keeps saying that BL has a definite advantage in performance.

1. The manufacturer is stating that this motor(the 4300) is comparable to a good quality stock motor. Are they lying !!??

2. The lure of BL is not for performance but for value. Some of us prefer the idea of not having to tune motors. Some of us have found that it is far more expensive to buy support equipment like a lathe, a zapper, a selection of brushes and springs and know that before not to long, you'll have to replace the motor anyway.

3. some keep giving the example of a race where a BL motor runs in a class where there is already a seperate BL class. Fine, we get it !! If there's a seperate BL class then you should race in that class. Or should we say THOSE classes because you'll need stock bl, sportsman bl, expert bl.
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Old 11-04-2003, 08:01 AM   #48
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Whatever happened to the concept of "Run what ya brung and hope you brung enough" type racing?
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Old 11-04-2003, 08:10 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cracker78
Whatever happened to the concept of "Run what ya brung and hope you brung enough" type racing?
yeah.
'the good old days.
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Old 11-04-2003, 08:15 AM   #50
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Turbo Joe - You are talking a lot of sense. It's driver ability 90% of the time, you have shown there is not an instant advantage just beacause you are using a brushless. If more clubs and sactioning bodies could see this that would encourage more people to use brushless motors.

This would eventually lead to closer and cheaper racing for everyone.
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Old 11-04-2003, 08:33 AM   #51
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just wondering if any of you brushless guys even read charlies post ( He works at novak ya know ). tell ya what Ill just put some of it up


"Soon BUT NOT YET there will be a an SS4300 motor. It is lower performance than the SS5800 even in the unlimited profile. this is just the motor to be used with the Super Sport Brushless ESC.

The Super Sport and the SS5800 are faster than a stock motor in any profile. By a lot. We just missed our test points is all. We could try to change the software but that would be "Service Nightmare" so we arent' planning on any changes to the ESC. The limited mode is still a bit too fast for stock class because folks gear them to the moon for top speed. It takes a little punch feel away, but it is still on par with a decent 19 turn motor."

so there it is right from the source. nuff said

on par with a decent 19t imagin that
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Old 11-04-2003, 08:35 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cracker78
Whatever happened to the concept of "Run what ya brung and hope you brung enough" type racing?
That still applies to 1/8 scale on-road gas to some extent, where it takes a big pocket book to start anyways.

I think the concept of stock racing is to keep the costs down and things even. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case if you want to be competitive.

I think the initial cost of a brushless system can seem overwhelming. $229 for novak SS plus another $80 for the new stock motor when it comes out. In the long run I think it pays off.

Some racers carry at least 3 motors or more. 3 X $25
A real good speed control will run you over $100.
A comm lathe alone with a diamond bit will run you over $200.
Brushes, springs and motor spray are recurring costs. $3-4 small but still recurring.
The ultimate recurring cost which is time spent cutting and tweaking motors. For those that look at time as money. 1hr x $6.75(minimum wage) every week.
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:05 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evoracer
Take tweaking out of the equation and it makes them nervous.
You are clueless. When it comes down to super competative racing, us racers need anything and everything we can get. We work our tails off trying to squeeze every last bit of voltage from our cells, power from our motors, reduced friction from our drivetrain, anything and everything to make our car as fast as we can, WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF OUR CLASS. This is part of racing! It doesn't make us nervous, it takes away from what we feel is part of the sport.

Quote:
I still see that not one person has clarified why they feel a "stock" brushless motor has such a great advantage over a brushed motor.
I already answered this question in my previous post. Apparently you only read what you want to.

Quote:
It's really weird because in other threads about BL, many guys are saying"BL can't compare with the performance of brushed motors.
They are talking about MOD. A tuned 7turn single mod motor will destroy any brushless currently on the market. You are still missing the entire point.

Quote:
2. The lure of BL is not for performance but for value. Some of us prefer the idea of not having to tune motors. Some of us have found that it is far more expensive to buy support equipment like a lathe, a zapper, a selection of brushes and springs and know that before not to long, you'll have to replace the motor anyway.
This is completely irrelivant. you are more then welcome to buy your BL for whatever reason you want to. Nobody is saying you can't buy one. We are just saying that they dont mix into a brushed class. Do you even know what a "spec" class is?
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:07 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbackslash
For those that look at time as money. 1hr x $6.75(minimum wage) every week.
$6.75?
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:26 AM   #55
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Holycow

Try and respect a few different opinions on the subject. I think the argument is that by taking away the tweaking, tuning, maintainence etc you are creating a class where it is easier for everyone to be equal.

The idea of a spec class is to give everyone the same level of performance so skill is the deciding factor, the current stock rules mean that those with the skill but without the time, money or knowledge are at a disadvantage. Sure it's fun if you know what you are doing but not everyone does.

By mixing brushed and brushless classes you would encourage more people to go brushless simply because they can race with it. This would lead to a situation where eventually you would get a true spec class.

If the current Novak BL is faster than a good stock, then the idea won't work but with the new motor coming soon it would be blinkered of us to not allow people to race with it just because it's a BL, this sport/hobby needs new racers.
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:31 AM   #56
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Default holycow.

Your points are taken....man,you are really high strung arent you?
Almost as bad as Bubbles.As RodC said before,you have a point but come off really arrogant.Chill.

The points are Less maintenance,less cost in the long run vs. are brushless "stock/profile" motors equal to brushed stock motors and is it fair to run them in the same class.

Let me preface what I am gonna say."IMHO" I feel they should not be run in the same class as they are completely different in characteristics.If novak can get a motor out on par with a stock motor then it can be addresses then.
This is for stock racing.Mod racing...usually is run what you brung in that there are no limits.I tell you that on carpet here in N california,the novak brushless guys are getting smoked because they cant keep up with a 9 turn on carpet.Period.But if they were to allow people to run it in the stock class even on limited mode,it would be a total reversal.It would kill even the fastest of stock motors because of its efficiency and torque and the ability to gear it on the wild side.
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:32 AM   #57
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some very good points have been posted here, but it sounds mostly like a "which is better thread" then a "should it be allowed thread". first let me say a lathe is like a wife, you don't need to have one, just access to a friends once in while . ok now that i got that outta my system. i don't have a brushless system, and right now i don't want one. ok so now you know where i'm coming from. there isn't and never will be true "stock" racing. i remember when i first started racing and my first "big event" didn't say race because it wasn't much of one. anyway, it was a handout motor race. so i'm thinking great. everyone has the same motor. while the label was the same the motors were different. the first thing the "fast" guys did was pull the brushes out, cut the comm, install different brushes, plus side and neg side, different springs. blah blah blah, well so much for a "stock" hand out motor. how long do you think it will take if the BL motors are made the "stock" motor of choice, before someone figures out that if you add a (insert some fancy electronic word here) into the system or open the speed control and change something you will get more torque or rpm. even when in the "stock" profile.

about as close as your gonna come to a stock racing class is the tamiya closed end bell class. but as we all know they too can be messed with.

whether or not the BL system is better or has or doesn't have a "clear" advantage is besides the point. it is a different type of motor then what is currently being used and considered stock. there for it gets its own class, if not enough cars for a class then they run with everyone else, just not counted, or scored seperate.
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:40 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by racenut123
Your points are taken....man,you are really high strung arent you?
Almost as bad as Bubbles.As RodC said before,you have a point but come off really arrogant.Chill.
No I am not high strung at all. I am just very opinionated. I dont have to chill.. and I can be as arrogant as I want to.
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:51 AM   #59
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I should have known...we have your type up here too.

Sportsmanstockchampionoftheworld!
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Old 11-04-2003, 09:55 AM   #60
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You don't know the first thing about me. I will stop being so arrogant, if you stop being so judgmental.
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