BRUSHLESS STOCK in STOCK CLASS.
11-03-2003, 04:52 PM
#16
Tech Elite
Originally posted by Evoracer
Joe, not really referring to your post. This whole discussion got started at another thread. The problem was that some people were talking about the SS5800 and others were talking about the 4300.
The beginning of this thread was going the same way so I thought I'd put everybody straight. This thread is in regards to the SS4300 BL "stock" motor system.
Joe and you other BL users. Keep using those systems guy's.....BL is here to stay and just because we don't have to tweak our motors or buy alot of equipment to get top performance out of them doesn't mean we should be excluded from racing against brushed motors. We should take an active stand against any race that excludes us. BL acceptance will only be hurt if we allow a select few to force BL users into they're own group. We should be pushing to be adopted into the mainstream races. A brushless stock motor is nothing more than a different motor choice. Saying that a BL driver won a race because he/she didn't have to teardown and tweak their motor in between heats is just plain foolish. If someone honestly believes there is a significant performance edge with a BL, prove it!! If you win your case than I for one will gladly go race against other BL racers in a seperate class.
Joe, not really referring to your post. This whole discussion got started at another thread. The problem was that some people were talking about the SS5800 and others were talking about the 4300.
The beginning of this thread was going the same way so I thought I'd put everybody straight. This thread is in regards to the SS4300 BL "stock" motor system.
Joe and you other BL users. Keep using those systems guy's.....BL is here to stay and just because we don't have to tweak our motors or buy alot of equipment to get top performance out of them doesn't mean we should be excluded from racing against brushed motors. We should take an active stand against any race that excludes us. BL acceptance will only be hurt if we allow a select few to force BL users into they're own group. We should be pushing to be adopted into the mainstream races. A brushless stock motor is nothing more than a different motor choice. Saying that a BL driver won a race because he/she didn't have to teardown and tweak their motor in between heats is just plain foolish. If someone honestly believes there is a significant performance edge with a BL, prove it!! If you win your case than I for one will gladly go race against other BL racers in a seperate class.
There was a time that there was differant classes of stock racing. There was what we have today fixed 24* timming 36* timming and yes even a 42* timming motor. But you could not run them in the same heats. they all had there own class to run in. After time went on the 36* motors were only allowed in an expert class and the 42* timed motors just faded away ( To many ppl over geared and burnt them up) YOU SEE DIFFERANT CLASSES. Thats the way it should be.
Now back to the future MC FLY. ( pun intended) 36* and 42* motors are gone. Now we have a BL motor to deal with ( I am all in favor of advancement) but still need to have the two differant classes> I am sure you cant show up at a stock nats race with a BL system and expect to race. Just my 2 cents ( wait give that back trying to save up for a BL system
)
11-03-2003, 05:10 PM
#17
So for us guys over 40 who may have a few more dead brain cells than you.......Your contention is that a "stock" BL motor, in particular the model 4300 since it's the only one on the market, is NOT what the manufacturer say's !!!! If thats your argument than we might as well stop now. There is no comparison between the 4300 and adjustable timing or lower wind motors. If that were the case, I'd gladly agree with you. But, FROM WHAT NOVAK IS SAYING!!!.....the 4300 is comparable to a top level STOCK 27T,24degree brushed motor. If you don't believe them then that's another story. All we can do is go by what they say.
As for the mechanical argument, thats rediculous !!! My God, there were guys who cried foul when the Monster came out....they claimed it had more performance than any stock motor could. In your mind it's ok if we keep reinventing brushed motors just because they require maintenance!!Just because a motor doesn't have brushes doesn't mean it operates at higher levels. And even if it does...HOW MUCH HIGHER??? Maybe like the difference between the guy with a stock Monster and the other guy with a Putnam tuned motor!!?? I don't know but it sure as hell isn't significant enough to make a bad driver win.
As for the mechanical argument, thats rediculous !!! My God, there were guys who cried foul when the Monster came out....they claimed it had more performance than any stock motor could. In your mind it's ok if we keep reinventing brushed motors just because they require maintenance!!Just because a motor doesn't have brushes doesn't mean it operates at higher levels. And even if it does...HOW MUCH HIGHER??? Maybe like the difference between the guy with a stock Monster and the other guy with a Putnam tuned motor!!?? I don't know but it sure as hell isn't significant enough to make a bad driver win.
11-03-2003, 05:12 PM
#18
From HolyCow:
"the ENTIRE point of the stock class, is to get all the racers to run the exact same thing. If you run a BL motor, you are completely negating the reason the "stock" class is even there for."
Like I said...that was my understanding of the deal...so how come all the "stock" motors don't run the same? Because they're not anywhere near "stock" anymore.
"Stock" in this sense is like NHRA Stock, where you can tweak it to within an inch of its life as long as you use a certain cylinder head and block and intake...it ends up costing more and being more tedious than most of the faster classes.
I for one think going to a "stock" (power level) BL system would actually get the "stock" class back to where you say it started. You could actually race and have fun instead of fussing over some super-tweaked "stock" motor that will smoke itself if you run it more than 5 minutes.
Wanna stick to brushes? Go for it...I'd rather be driving it than rebuilding motors. I need the practice.
"the ENTIRE point of the stock class, is to get all the racers to run the exact same thing. If you run a BL motor, you are completely negating the reason the "stock" class is even there for."
Like I said...that was my understanding of the deal...so how come all the "stock" motors don't run the same? Because they're not anywhere near "stock" anymore.
"Stock" in this sense is like NHRA Stock, where you can tweak it to within an inch of its life as long as you use a certain cylinder head and block and intake...it ends up costing more and being more tedious than most of the faster classes.
I for one think going to a "stock" (power level) BL system would actually get the "stock" class back to where you say it started. You could actually race and have fun instead of fussing over some super-tweaked "stock" motor that will smoke itself if you run it more than 5 minutes.
Wanna stick to brushes? Go for it...I'd rather be driving it than rebuilding motors. I need the practice.
11-03-2003, 05:14 PM
#19
Jeez!!......darn good point and you said it in a whole lot fewer words than I could !!!!! 
11-03-2003, 05:17 PM
#20
Originally posted by Evoracer
...HOW MUCH HIGHER??? Maybe like the difference between the guy with a stock Monster and the other guy with a Putnam tuned motor!!?? I don't know but it sure as hell isn't significant enough to make a bad driver win.
...HOW MUCH HIGHER??? Maybe like the difference between the guy with a stock Monster and the other guy with a Putnam tuned motor!!?? I don't know but it sure as hell isn't significant enough to make a bad driver win.
11-03-2003, 05:25 PM
#21
Tech Elite
Guys;
Howard here is .02 more.
Unfair advantage or not, BL Motors do NOT conform to the normal rules that most clubs/tracks have been going by.
Why would one NOT allow a 23T Stock Motor to compete in the 27T Stock class, but consider a BL to be ok? If that's the case, why not 19T Motors run in "Stock" class. Let driving be the deciding factor.
Lastly, does anyone actually think that these companies would produce a BL "Stock" Motor that is actually SLOWER than a brushed Stock Motor. I wouldn't buy one.
Howard here is .02 more.
Unfair advantage or not, BL Motors do NOT conform to the normal rules that most clubs/tracks have been going by.
Why would one NOT allow a 23T Stock Motor to compete in the 27T Stock class, but consider a BL to be ok? If that's the case, why not 19T Motors run in "Stock" class. Let driving be the deciding factor.
Lastly, does anyone actually think that these companies would produce a BL "Stock" Motor that is actually SLOWER than a brushed Stock Motor. I wouldn't buy one.
11-03-2003, 05:27 PM
#22
Tech Fanatic
Seeing how Charlie_b started this thread, and the post that he used to start it, it is coming from the Toyota thread. For that I ask Evoracer, why did you come ALL the way from Florida to race at the Toyota race?
This is more of a discution to wheather or not to allow BL's to run with Brushed motors. As HC, and HH posted, THEY DO NOT BELONG WITH BRUSHED MOTORS, and I also feel this way. But there can be some drivers who are willing to run their BL's agenst their Brushed counterparts, but ONLY THE OWNERS OF BL'S ARE DEFENDING THEIR RIGHT TO RUN WITH BRUSHED MOTORED CARS. It seems that there is an advantage to running the BL'S, but most drivers of BL systems do not want to give up their unfair advantage. It takes a leval of skill to tune a motor, where as BL motors just need to be set once, and they are fast.
This is more of a discution to wheather or not to allow BL's to run with Brushed motors. As HC, and HH posted, THEY DO NOT BELONG WITH BRUSHED MOTORS, and I also feel this way. But there can be some drivers who are willing to run their BL's agenst their Brushed counterparts, but ONLY THE OWNERS OF BL'S ARE DEFENDING THEIR RIGHT TO RUN WITH BRUSHED MOTORED CARS. It seems that there is an advantage to running the BL'S, but most drivers of BL systems do not want to give up their unfair advantage. It takes a leval of skill to tune a motor, where as BL motors just need to be set once, and they are fast.
11-03-2003, 05:32 PM
#23
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
I for one think going to a "stock" (power level) BL system would actually get the "stock" class back to where you say it started. You could actually race and have fun instead of fussing over some super-tweaked "stock" motor that will smoke itself if you run it more than 5 minutes.
I for one think going to a "stock" (power level) BL system would actually get the "stock" class back to where you say it started. You could actually race and have fun instead of fussing over some super-tweaked "stock" motor that will smoke itself if you run it more than 5 minutes.
it is very true that if everybody had to run the same brushless motor, it would keep people at a far closer playing field then today's stock rebuildable motors.
Evoracer, I think you are just missing the entire point.
11-03-2003, 05:44 PM
#24
Tech Elite
Originally posted by holycow
I totally agree 100%. but that isn't the argument. The discussion is about mixing brushed and brushless motors into the same race.
it is very true that if everybody had to run the same brushless motor, it would keep people at a far closer playing field then today's stock rebuildable motors.
Evoracer, I think you are just missing the entire point.
I totally agree 100%. but that isn't the argument. The discussion is about mixing brushed and brushless motors into the same race.
it is very true that if everybody had to run the same brushless motor, it would keep people at a far closer playing field then today's stock rebuildable motors.
Evoracer, I think you are just missing the entire point.
So now what happens when 2 or 3 different companies offer "Stock" BL systems (in a year or two).
How do you handle it if a BL "Stock" Motor from company "N", runs much faster with an ESC from company "H"? Racers will figure these kind of things out.
11-03-2003, 06:02 PM
#25
Wow..what a truly interesting subject! Who would have known..
I too remember the 42 deg and the 36 deg stockers and yes, they were allowed in the expert classes only. Infact, it was only about 3 years ago that the 36 deg. motors died out.
The arguement now is that BL motors should not run with brushed motors. Would EXPERT drivers agree to run with these brushless motors if they were only allowed to:
1. run in expert stock class only
2. have a limited gear ratio
Being a racer myself, i cavn totally see both sides, but until there are enough BL motors out there for a class, how can we close the door to this new breed of motor? Will having these two racing conditions for now be a temporary solution?
Please let me know.
I too remember the 42 deg and the 36 deg stockers and yes, they were allowed in the expert classes only. Infact, it was only about 3 years ago that the 36 deg. motors died out.
The arguement now is that BL motors should not run with brushed motors. Would EXPERT drivers agree to run with these brushless motors if they were only allowed to:
1. run in expert stock class only
2. have a limited gear ratio
Being a racer myself, i cavn totally see both sides, but until there are enough BL motors out there for a class, how can we close the door to this new breed of motor? Will having these two racing conditions for now be a temporary solution?
Please let me know.
11-03-2003, 06:06 PM
#26
Originally posted by holycow
I totally agree 100%. but that isn't the argument. The discussion is about mixing brushed and brushless motors into the same race.
it is very true that if everybody had to run the same brushless motor, it would keep people at a far closer playing field then today's stock rebuildable motors.
I totally agree 100%. but that isn't the argument. The discussion is about mixing brushed and brushless motors into the same race.
it is very true that if everybody had to run the same brushless motor, it would keep people at a far closer playing field then today's stock rebuildable motors.
Maybe the additional nutrition factor ought to be looked into. You might be less twitchy that way.
If you like, I can just hang out in your pit and watch you rebuild motors...that would keep me from having any additional advantage, right? 
I think my unfair advantage is that I spent $200 *once* ...well *twice* actually (I have aother 5800 in my MT). No brush crap, no motor spray, no lathe. I don't have to spend another dime until the 4300 comes out.
Maybe I'm just missing something here...;
11-03-2003, 06:20 PM
#27
I think all you guys should just sit back and relax Here's what will happen (or could happen... my crystal ball is currently out of order)
We have this fancy new BL system that says it will be "better" than our current situation. A few people will try it but the majority will stay with what they got (this is where we are now). If the new system stands the test of time, more and more people will get it and the "old" stuff will fade away.
We are at that middle stage... the most turbulent stage because, as always, everyone has a different opinion of what is fair and what is right. However I suggest a comprimise. For the tracks with few racers, I suggest that the bl should be allowed with the stock racers (why seperate an already small crowd into smaller divisions)... besides everyone at the club level should be racing for fun right? And at "larger" races or clubs where there is higher concentration of racers, then seperating brushed and brushless would make sense.
So in reality, whether you allow brushed and brushless to race together really depends on whether you have enough drivers to warrent splitting them up.
Here's what will happen (or could happen... my crystal ball is currently out of order)We have this fancy new BL system that says it will be "better" than our current situation. A few people will try it but the majority will stay with what they got (this is where we are now). If the new system stands the test of time, more and more people will get it and the "old" stuff will fade away.
We are at that middle stage... the most turbulent stage because, as always, everyone has a different opinion of what is fair and what is right. However I suggest a comprimise. For the tracks with few racers, I suggest that the bl should be allowed with the stock racers (why seperate an already small crowd into smaller divisions)... besides everyone at the club level should be racing for fun right? And at "larger" races or clubs where there is higher concentration of racers, then seperating brushed and brushless would make sense.
So in reality, whether you allow brushed and brushless to race together really depends on whether you have enough drivers to warrent splitting them up.
11-03-2003, 06:34 PM
#28
Tech Fanatic
Originally posted by charlie_b
Wow..what a truly interesting subject! Who would have known..
I too remember the 42 deg and the 36 deg stockers and yes, they were allowed in the expert classes only. Infact, it was only about 3 years ago that the 36 deg. motors died out.
Wow..what a truly interesting subject! Who would have known..
I too remember the 42 deg and the 36 deg stockers and yes, they were allowed in the expert classes only. Infact, it was only about 3 years ago that the 36 deg. motors died out.
11-03-2003, 07:08 PM
#29
Originally posted by charlie_b
The arguement now is that BL motors should not run with brushed motors. Would EXPERT drivers agree to run with these brushless motors if they were only allowed to:
1. run in expert stock class only
2. have a limited gear ratio
The arguement now is that BL motors should not run with brushed motors. Would EXPERT drivers agree to run with these brushless motors if they were only allowed to:
1. run in expert stock class only
2. have a limited gear ratio
I'm not looking for an advantage, I just want to have fun racing.
11-03-2003, 07:40 PM
#30
Cracker probably has it right. basically...what will be will be. For some reason a number of you keep bringing up the idea that somehow allowing this BL stock motor is no different than allowing 23t or 19t or whatever.......THAT IS NOT THE POINT !!! From a performance standpoint, this particular motor(only the 4300) is reported by the manufacturer to be similar in performance to any top level stock motor. Why would that cause a problem????
Popsracer, I agree that when other manufacturers get involved there MAY BE some disparity between the motors and esc's offered. Guess we'll have to wait and see. The bottom line here is that there are a few people who simply do not wish to believe that this BL motor is comparable to the average Monster stock pro motor. All we have to go by is Novaks' word. I thought their word was worth something. As for the "legality" of running this motor. Obviously neither ROAR nor any other group has approved BL for competition.......yet. So if it's a ROAR race...I'll show up with a brushed motor.
Bubbles......I didn't go to the Toyota/Lexus race. I contacted Charlie because a local Lexus/Toyota dealer here is interested in hosting a similar event.
Apparently you are one of those who feel BL has an "unfair" advantage over brushed but the only "advantage" you've mentioned is in the lack of maintenance. I've rethought that....you're right!! It is an advantage. BIG DEAL!! Again, the argument is reduced to "ooh.. thats not fair because he didn't have to work on his motor and I did"
Well, our club will continue to mix BL and brushed motor use. I guess the gap will continue until the day brushed motors are considered as antique as those 36 and 42 degree motors. Personally, I feel that BL will help get more people in to the sport and STAY in the sport by offering an overall lower cost, less frustrating learning curve and no loss in performance. It also offers a more even playing field.One less variable so it comes down to chassis tuning and driver ability.
No hard feelings to anyone. Thanks for sharing your views.
Popsracer, I agree that when other manufacturers get involved there MAY BE some disparity between the motors and esc's offered. Guess we'll have to wait and see. The bottom line here is that there are a few people who simply do not wish to believe that this BL motor is comparable to the average Monster stock pro motor. All we have to go by is Novaks' word. I thought their word was worth something. As for the "legality" of running this motor. Obviously neither ROAR nor any other group has approved BL for competition.......yet. So if it's a ROAR race...I'll show up with a brushed motor.
Bubbles......I didn't go to the Toyota/Lexus race. I contacted Charlie because a local Lexus/Toyota dealer here is interested in hosting a similar event.
Apparently you are one of those who feel BL has an "unfair" advantage over brushed but the only "advantage" you've mentioned is in the lack of maintenance. I've rethought that....you're right!! It is an advantage. BIG DEAL!! Again, the argument is reduced to "ooh.. thats not fair because he didn't have to work on his motor and I did"
Well, our club will continue to mix BL and brushed motor use. I guess the gap will continue until the day brushed motors are considered as antique as those 36 and 42 degree motors. Personally, I feel that BL will help get more people in to the sport and STAY in the sport by offering an overall lower cost, less frustrating learning curve and no loss in performance. It also offers a more even playing field.One less variable so it comes down to chassis tuning and driver ability.
No hard feelings to anyone. Thanks for sharing your views.