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Old 11-05-2003, 03:02 PM   #136
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I'm all for running BL in mod class with brushed mod motors. I think allowing BL in stock class is a bad idea, though. Even if the performance is identical to other stock motors, I feel the cost of the BL might turn off new racers. By contrast, the cost of the BL is a bargain compared to a brushed mod solution. A good mod motor and controller already matches the price of the Novak SS even before you thrown in the cost of extra springs & brushes & tools.

Stock is not a cheap class to run in competitively, but it can be very inexpensive if a new racer just want to try it out. A $30 motor and a $50 controller can get a new guy running in stock class. If there was a BL controller and motor combo that offered the same performance as a ROAR legal stock motor and sold for under $100, I could see the arguement for allowing that in stock class. But $230 for a stock class motor and controller is too high. Heck, we are actually talking about a US$300 solution (US$230 for Novak SS combo plus US$70 for the 4300 motor), which is even more insane. Explain to a new racer that he should spend US$300 on a stock motor and controller instead of US$100 and see if he still feels like racing. I say we should keep BL out of stock class.

Don't assume I am against BL tech. I own a Novak SS and enjoy running it in mod. It runs on par with a 10-11 turn mod motor on the track, and does it for less money than a comparable brushed mod solution. As much as I like the Novak solution, I think that the cost factor should keep it out of stock class, even at the club level.
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Old 11-05-2003, 03:24 PM   #137
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I just think people don't see the scope of things.Or maybe you havent been doing this long enough to realize what pushes our little hobby.Your talking about such minute difference in BL motors Holy cow,your basically cancel out your own argument when it comes to Brushed motors.Take ten Brushed motors that are in apperance the same.2 are Pigs no matter what you do to them{thus cancelling out tuning them to get better performance}they wont run well.6 of them are about the same in performance and then there are 2 that are Just plain fast.Thats a huge variation in such a small number.We shouldnt according to your logic allow either the 2 slowest or the 2 fastest to run because it would be unfair.HUH?!!!!!!So your telling me that because of a variation in the brushless motors that you would not allow people to run a BL that is tuned to be no faster then an average stock motor? Ok....You also don't like the fact that you personally cant tune your BL,but that means that you wont allow others to run what they want even if these motors meet certain specs?Remember,according to your logic,they are now at a disadvantage because they cant tune their motors to go any faster.Doesnt make any sense to me why they wont be aloowed.Brushed stock motors get faster and faster as the years have gone on but the bl would stay the same.Wow it really sounds like a huge advantage to me over the brushed motors!

Guess what guys.I know drivers that could literaly pull out thier lathe's motor and whip any fast "stock" racers butt by 2 laps.I have seen it down to prove a point.Even in stock classes there are other variables then just what you can squeeze out of a motor.Driving is the most important one and batteries are another.Its sounds like guys who are marginally fast,but cant go any faster are feeling threatened because they want to feel they have every advantage.Well in your minds,you still can have every advantage,continue to run your Brushed motor.But to say others cant run a "stock tuned" bl unit is really narrow minded.If its faster in appearance,could it be that the BL driver whoes faster then you is just a better driver.Or if its slower then your brushed car,why would you complain? You see,we dont have issues with this in the Mod class.The current Novak system in most cases is slower.Holycow and others feel you cant run the 2 together in the almighty stock class,because ultimately they feel threatened.That someone who may not have to true a com or change brushes or polish bearings or cut brushes or tweak springs,or break out the dyno or align hoods,etc,etc etc,may just beat them.Could it be that maybe they are just faster then you?
Rather then having such a narrow veiw we need to accept new technologies for what they are.The future.Noone is proposing that we faze out brushed motors.If we don't open our minds up to new things this hobby is gonna continue on its downward spiral like it has been in the last 3-4 years.
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Old 11-05-2003, 03:27 PM   #138
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Problem with that evo racer{making it a seperate class}is it dilutes you racer base in the classes and eventually the weaker dies off.19 turn in some areas is booming whilein other areas its non existant.Why?diluted racer base.We are not bring in enough people into the sport of rc racing to replace those who quit!
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Old 11-05-2003, 05:06 PM   #139
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Racenut, this "dilutes your racer base "must be some sort of buzz phrase. I think I know what you mean but it's not really relavent.
The fact is that BL may very well replace brushed motors in the fairly near future. I made a comment earlier to the effect of "in the end, it won't be us BL drivers you have to worry about, it's the manufacturers of all those pieces that go into making brushed motors that will make the decision for you. RC users are a minute section of the population that buys electric motors. A number of large corporations use electric motors in their devices. When THEY determine that brushless motors put more bucks in their pockets, brushed motors will fade away."

Like it or not, thats the way of the world.

As for diluting the racer base. We can sit back and let ROAR, Trinity and all those hardcore brushed motor advocates guide how quickly or in what form we promote BL use OR we can take a pro active stand and allow ourselves the oppurtunity to guide it's growth by promoting it with the best thing we have.....our enthusiasm and progressive thinking. That effort will be a lot easier if we're not wasting our time fighting battles that don't need to be fought.

If we work at it, there shouldn't be any dissolution since we'll be injecting new racers(purchasers) into the rc population. As BL becomes more commonplace, brushed users will likely switch over. The rc aircraft industry made the switch and it 's booming !!!
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Old 11-05-2003, 05:17 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evoracer
RC users are a minute section of the population that buys electric motors. A number of large corporations use electric motors in their devices. When THEY determine that brushless motors put more bucks in their pockets, brushed motors will fade away."



As BL becomes more commonplace, brushed users will likely switch over. The rc aircraft industry made the switch and it 's booming !!!
Another complete truth!.....You know the RC aircraft segment of the Hobby is where the money is.And they are smart enough to recognize the advantages to Bl power.Thats what I meant by some people see things in such a limited scope.There are so many things in the r/c industry that are controlled by outside influences.If we think we can stop the way things{outside tech that influence us directly} develope, then we are mistaken.We have such a small market share,we can't always dictate how things will be.Look at our battery technology over the last 15 years.Who ever thought we would be at 3300 mah in a sub c cell.But is that a bad thing?!Look out because the same people crying now about BL powered cars will be screaming like babies when battery technology changes drastically like it has recently in many different sectors of r/c.If were not running to keep up,we will get left behind.
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Old 11-05-2003, 05:21 PM   #141
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I think Racenut was trying to say that there would be fewer and fewer people to run each individual class, you wouldn't have enough to fill any of the classes.

I think the "stock" brushed guys will agree to let brushless in exactly the same day that politicians agree to campaign finance reform...the second Tuesday of next week. The system suits them just fine and they don't want anyone crashing their little party.

Last edited by Turbo Joe; 11-05-2003 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 11-05-2003, 05:25 PM   #142
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Quote:
[i] The system suits them just fine and they don't want anyone crashing their little party. [/B]

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Old 11-05-2003, 06:01 PM   #143
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Racenut, I think you are posting on the wrong thread. Nobody in here, not even once, is arguing that brushless isn't the wave of the future, or that brushess isn't the way to go eventually.

This discussion is about weather or not the BL stock, and the Brush stock, should be allowed in the same race. Sooo.. try to stick to topic.

You and Evo keep saying stuff like "oh you hard core brush guys have it coming" and crap like that... who are you even talking to? Its like you are having a conversation with yourself. Everybody on this thread agrees with every single thing you have said about BL coming no matter what, and that it is the future...

We just think it should be a seperate class at this early stage in its development.
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Old 11-05-2003, 06:07 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
I think Racenut was trying to say that there would be fewer and fewer people to run each individual class, you wouldn't have enough to fill any of the classes.

I think the "stock" brushed guys will agree to let brushes on exactly the same day that politicians agree to campaign finance reform...the second Tuesday of next week. The system suits them just fine and they don't want anyone crashing their little party.
WHAT THE!!!!!! THERES A PARTY !!!! WHERE WHERE
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Old 11-05-2003, 06:11 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by holycow
Racenut, I think you are posting on the wrong thread. Nobody in here, not even once, is arguing that brushless isn't the wave of the future, or that brushess isn't the way to go eventually.

This discussion is about weather or not the BL stock, and the Brush stock, should be allowed in the same race. Sooo.. try to stick to topic.

You and Evo keep saying stuff like "oh you hard core brush guys have it coming" and crap like that... who are you even talking to? Its like you are having a conversation with yourself. Everybody on this thread agrees with every single thing you have said about BL coming no matter what, and that it is the future...

We just think it should be a seperate class at this early stage in its development.
HOLY you have to think of it this way ... the reason they run the BL system is because they cant make a brush motor perform... now I know they will come back and say something stupid but oh well

And yes I do know that the BL system is the way of the future but you two have made it a war so pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl
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Old 11-05-2003, 06:32 PM   #146
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racenut & joe, I think we're on the same page. Holycows' statement that" nobody is arguing that BL isn't the wave of the future " says volumes about why we SHOULDN'T bother pushing for BL stock to race with brushed stock. It seems people understand whats happening but THEY want to be the ones to guide how fast the acceptence happens. Cow, I know you were agreeing on a small level and I mean no disrespect. Bottom line.....we can further the BL movement and the sport by promoting BL. If BL is to become the future, then very little dissolution should happen. Experienced drivers will be making what would be an eventual change anyway and new drivers will join partially because they see the value and the benefits. Somebody mentioned earlier that the cost of BL for a newbie could very well scare them away. Agreed !! But keep in mind that as more units get into the market, the cost will drop. Also remember that for an entry level racer, can motors are still available. All this means is that we as club presidents or track owners have to be willing to make some changes. It's all about how you market and promote.
Those that have said we're losing more drivers then we're bringing in are most likely right but thats due to many factors. Young drivers grow up and find other interests, 20 somethings get jobs or have school, 30 somethings are too damned busy. 40 somethings have been to school and worked long enough to know they have to take time off to play with toy's !!!
Turn over is always going to be normal for this hobby.
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Old 11-05-2003, 06:37 PM   #147
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Decided i didn't like that joke so I'm editing here.
Howard...no war that I know of. In case you haven't noticed ...I'm trying to convince all the BL users NOT to race with you guys.
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Old 11-05-2003, 06:38 PM   #148
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So who made you the winner of the Taco Bell Nationals Howard Hudson?Get over yourself.

I will still run a brushed motor and I can tune them just the same.Noone was making it a war.Some people I noticed from this forum from the Socal region need to get their heads out of there own butts.I never claimed I was faster or more knowledgeable then anyone.By your comments and Holycow's attiude you guys you feel your opinion has more leverage.I never said brushed motors were to be replaced ,just that I FELT that they should be allowed to race together.Your acting like all brushed stock motors are all the same and with the advent of the new Novak stock BL,that it will have a distinct advantage over a brushed motor.Please.

Quote" This discussion is about weather or not the BL stock, and the Brush stock, should be allowed in the same race. Sooo.. try to stick to topic."

I was sticking to the topic. Reread what I said.By the way I never called into question either one of your tuning or driving skills,so dont even go there.
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Old 11-05-2003, 06:41 PM   #149
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Guys;

OK, I'm going to do it again.

Since the topic of Heat and Magnets was brought up, this made the gears whirl again (although a little noisy).

In a Brushed Motor, the current flows through the Armature, so heat is created by the windings and is radiated outward into the Can and Magnets.

A BL Motor has the windings in the Can and the Magnets in the Rotor. Wouldn't the spinning Rotor stay cooler as the much of the Heat from the windings is being radiated outward through the Can. The BL systems that I've seen are basicly sealed, so there must be something to my madness.

Another advantage?
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Old 11-05-2003, 06:49 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by holycow

We just think it should be a seperate class at this early stage in its development.
Who is We? Sometimes it doesn't matter what we think. If you are the race director and a couple of guys show up with brushless "stock" motors, what do you do? Send them home or do you run a two car or one car heat? If you put it up to me a racer, do I act unsportsman like and tell them to go home? Do I act pompous and tell them to spend another couple hundred dollars so they can race with me? I am as competitive as the next guy and I want to win, but the level at which I race (intermediate) it's about learning how to drive, comerodery, and having fun.
Do I talk s**t about those guys and give them a hard time once in awhile. Sure I do. It's all in fun. We had two brushless limited guys running with us at socal last night. One guy has been doing it for over a month. The director mixed in Novice racers with us last night.
Did I bit*h? Sure I did, but I came to realization that the goal for every race night is to have fun and I did.
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