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Old 05-06-2005, 12:30 PM   #8701
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Quote:
Originally posted by SCML
My own setup testing (though I could be fooling myself), shows that more spacers under the inner link increases grip on that end.
Same for me for 415 with stock suspension. Add shims under inner joint seems will give better traction during accelration (same setting everything else), which fit the profile of lower RC. Did I miss something?
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:07 PM   #8702
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Quote:
Originally posted by SCML
I agree with TRF415boy. Since David posted that, I've been trying to reconcile it, but I can't. If the inner link is raised, it lowers roll center, and if it is lowered, it raises roll center, that's the only way I can see it happening.

It seems with the lower arms angled up slightly, the effect of spacers under the upper link is minimal to overall roll center, compared to if the arms were angled down towards the wheels. The intersection point is much farther removed from the car with arms angled up to the wheels.

My own setup testing (though I could be fooling myself), shows that more spacers under the inner link increases grip on that end. On the rear, spacers under the hub ball stud seems to decrease grip. By Davids explaination, spacers under the hub ball stud, and none under inner ball stud would lower roll center, and increase grip.

David, is there something we are missing here?

Mike
As I see things, by having less angle on the upper link (let's make it easier), you will have a more consistent feel of the grip on that end.

A more angled upper link will give more grip only mid corner, and will help the car rotate in and off corners. The car will also react quicker as the chassis will roll less. What I think happens is that off power, you decrease drastically the camber (more camber change with a more angled link), but also have more weight transfer as an effect of the geometry of the hubs, and this helps the car rotate off power.

Then, mid corner the compression of the suspension gives its appliction to the camber change by increasing grip in that part of the corner by having a slightly smaller contact patch (especially a contact patch that becomes wider than it's long (if you consider the direction of the effort as reference, which is parallel to the wheel's axle at that moment) and that increases grip.

On power though, you will feel the side effect of that setting, as the car will then loose grip by the exact contrary effect. The smaller contact patch is now longer than it's wide as the direction of the efforts has now changed (now it's roughly in the same orientation as the car's axle), which result in a los of grip.

So basically, you can't really say that you increase grip in general. To do that, you will have to lower the roll centre without changing camber change, which would require more tuning than just changing the same amount of spacers under the susp blocks and upper link spacers.

Anyone managed to understand everything ?
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:23 PM   #8703
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When I mention Grip, I'm referring to steering in general. I also adjust camber when changing roll center, so that the lack of camber change has less affect.

Here is what I tried -

My car was pushing badly, in, during and out of the corner. Leaving most other things the same, I put a 2mm spacer under the hub ball stud on the rear, and no spacers under the inner link. I the front I went to 3mm spacers under the inner link. I adjust camber to compensate, and set the toe at 0. After these changes, the car steers everywhere pretty well, the only issue is about in the middle of some corners, off power, the car will get loose, but I think that will be solved by laying down the rear shocks a hole or 2, and possibly standing the fronts up. I could also use a little more on power steering.

This was a drastic change, as all the small changes I was making weren't helping. This seemed to do the trick, and now the car is more drivable for me.

That's counter intuitive to what David posted, as my rear end should be totally hooked up with that much angle in the rear links, and the front should be quick, but have less overall steering due to the high roll center.

Good discussion!

Mike
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:20 PM   #8704
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TRF415boy & SCML,
My mistake, I meant to say it the other way around. I have a habit of referring to it reversed because the physical effect of the action which lowering the upper link (increasing angle) tends to lower chassis roll (less weight transfer) and visa versa. Sorry for the confusion.

Also, apparently, Ive also listed my toe setting in reverse as well. My set-up sheet says +1 degrees of toe in the front. Well, Im running 1 degree of toe out up front so technically I should have wrote -1degree according to the set-up sheet. Doohh... my bad!
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:27 PM   #8705
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Hmmm... Pro Module or hotel for Reedy, Pro Module or hotel for Reedy......
Guess sleep is more important
Tought choice .... Mike ...... Sleep usually gets tossed out the window for me
-Dave
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:29 PM   #8706
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David J......david wrote:

"Doohh... my bad!......"

not bad just STUPID...!!!
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:41 PM   #8707
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Thanks David, had me scared there for a minute, thinking I was all backasswards.

Mike
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:47 PM   #8708
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Quote:
Originally posted by red robinhood
David J......david wrote:

"Doohh... my bad!......"

not bad just STUPID...!!!
Hey Gabe,

Pick a window.......because your leaving!!! J/K

When are you getting a bike so I can show you how to ride? Tell Fernando I'm sorry I had to cut our conversation short this morning. I'll call you guys this weekend.

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Old 05-06-2005, 07:17 PM   #8709
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Quote:
Originally posted by David J.
TRF415boy & SCML,
My mistake, I meant to say it the other way around. I have a habit of referring to it reversed because the physical effect of the action which lowering the upper link (increasing angle) tends to lower chassis roll (less weight transfer) and visa versa. Sorry for the confusion.

Also, apparently, Ive also listed my toe setting in reverse as well. My set-up sheet says +1 degrees of toe in the front. Well, Im running 1 degree of toe out up front so technically I should have wrote -1degree according to the set-up sheet. Doohh... my bad!
Lol, you had me worried for a moment with that though. Well, I guess the good thing is that now i've got the model of the LW suspension on my computer, which I never got round to do before, lol.
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Old 05-06-2005, 08:46 PM   #8710
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Quote:
Originally posted by ttso
Same for me for 415 with stock suspension. Add shims under inner joint seems will give better traction during accelration (same setting everything else), which fit the profile of lower RC. Did I miss something?
Do you mean just like the stock @ manual setting spacer position on the blocks?
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Old 05-06-2005, 09:07 PM   #8711
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Have a question about the stock 415 front suspension. Mine is all stock. I see alot of guys are using the C1 & C2 block setup (part 53579 hard front uprights). The stock kit ones are part number 50985.

My question is are they the same block except for the one being the hardened version and one being the softer type plastic?

Are they both the same caster?

Brian
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Old 05-06-2005, 09:10 PM   #8712
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Quote:
Originally posted by wyd
Have a question about the stock 415 front suspension. Mine is all stock. I see alot of guys are using the C1 & C2 block setup (part 53579 hard front uprights). The stock kit ones are part number 50985.

My question is are they the same block except for the one being the hardened version and one being the softer type plastic?

Are they both the same caster?

Brian
4 deg
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Old 05-06-2005, 09:17 PM   #8713
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Quote:
Originally posted by JDM_DOHC_SiR
4 deg
Thanks Dave. I'm always kinda confused with Tamiya stuff when compared to other cars. They have so much stuff and alot of stuff is universal.

I need to get some of the hardened version for next week.

Ran my new 415 and it was pretty smooth but it pushed pretty good off power. I will work on that tommorrow.
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Old 05-06-2005, 09:19 PM   #8714
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Quote:
Originally posted by wyd
Thanks Dave. I'm always kinda confused with Tamiya stuff when compared to other cars. They have so much stuff and alot of stuff is universal.

I need to get some of the hardened version for next week.

Ran my new 415 and it was pretty smooth but it pushed pretty good off power. I will work on that tommorrow.
PM me I have a bunch of Old sus 415 stuff that I done use anymore
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Old 05-06-2005, 09:22 PM   #8715
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I built my MS per manual instructions and I then put it on the hudy set up board and it showed I had 4 degrees negative camber in the front also .5 degree toe out and 1 degree in the rear. Is this a good set up to start with
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