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Old 12-31-2008, 10:47 AM   #1
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Hi , i received for Xmas some promatch racing energ4600 cells , and i went to my local hobby shop for him to solder them and he has soldered them very well .
He told me : when you get home fully charge the cells ,then discharge them to 0.90 v , let them rest then recharge them then discharge them .
i did all this on my muchmore cell master and CTXD2 .
First , i dont know what do the seconde mean on each cells , my cells show between 470 and 487 sec . Im going to run mod with a 3.5 BL motor .
will it be enough runtime ?

Main question , first charge for each 5 cell pack took them about 800 mah because they where already fully charged when i receved them for xmas. then when i did the 2sd charge i charged only one pack because it only took 4118 mah for a 4600 pack .
whats wrong ?
I thought i could be attending my forst ever important meeting but it doesnt seem i will be able.
I havnt charge the rest of the packs because i dont know what to do .
Could anyone help me please .
Thanks guys
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:00 AM   #2
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here is promatch link , http://www.promatchracing.com/techsupport.php, you can find info about charging batteries. Your local shop is right and I think the first few steps are just to make sure your batteries will take charge after first full charge, then if your batteries have problem you can return them (but must be unassembled) I recently emailed promatch about some battery's questions, they said the best way to make sure your pack is working properly is to use temp gauge.
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:31 AM   #3
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Check out the ProMatch web sight, he has some really great info their. Find the battery care page and I recommend following what he had posted, it has never failed me. As far as the numbers on the individual cells, those are used in the matching process so you get a good pack that is consistant. The seconds are basicaly how long it took the cell to discharge from peak to .9 volts at the given amp discharge(30 amps is most common). It will also tell you charge rate, internal resistance, and cutoff voltage.I have never used the milliamp number to rate packs so can't help you on that one.
Again, check with the guys at promatch and they will get you going.
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:52 PM   #4
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Hi , i have done everything on their web site as recomended , but my second pack i charged only peacked at 4200 mah .
Whats wrong ????

Also , how many mah do i aproximatly need to finich a 5 min mod race .





Edit : Happy new year guys
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:27 PM   #5
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I am not an expert of battery but my first two promatch packs took more than 4500 amps on first full charge, but I did over discharge them a little by accident. If you discharge the pack to 0.9V, it still has partial charge in it because the volt is not 0.0V is it. So I guess it is not a big deal if the pack only took 4200 amps. Follow their instruction to run the pack in the car until the car noticeably slows down, and then equalize discharge it to 0.9V, and then charge it. As long as the pack is not overheated (use temp gun or your hand) after the charge (you need to set delta peak value right), I think your pack is fine.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:09 PM   #6
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cyclone speed,

I can offer some advice, first tell me the settings you're using on your charger. I have the cell master here, so I know the charger well.

Also, let me say right now that there may be no problem at all, some of my new packs seem to take a shorter than normal charge the first few times.

When your packs finished charge, did they peak cutoff, or temp cutoff?
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:16 PM   #7
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Some cells will take longer to cycle inn, or break in. I have found that the more runs mine have had on them the stronger they have gotten, I am getting new ones though!
I cycle them at least twice a month when not racing and leave them partially charged when not racing or what not due to weather outside. I have a GFX 35 so it is one of the nicer chargers on the market and I know not everyone can afford them but they work wonders on packs.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:26 PM   #8
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You have to remember that at 0.9 per cell there is still MAH left in the pack...my energ4600 have never taken 4600mah when properly discharged, they will from a dead shourt tho...
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:27 PM   #9
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Oh and i run mostly with 4.5 and they last the main no problem.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:42 PM   #10
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My 4600's are taking between 4900 and 5100 mah on the charger after traying to .9 per cell before the charge. My 4200's used to take aroinf 4500-4600 after traying to .9 per cell.

This was when the packs were pretty new, but had a few cycles on them to break in. The 4200's did fall back to taking between 400 and 4200 after traying after a few months of use... I haven't had the 4600's long enough to niotce any dropoff in charge time so far.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:41 AM   #11
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this is what i used to do with my sub-c's since i am also using ctx cell master and ctx-d2 before

from storage:
1.) pulse discharge down to 1.00v per cell
2.) linear discharge down to 0.9v per cell
3.) rest the pack until its back to room temperature.
4.) charge @ 5amps with 05mv delta settings (adjust depending on the cells peak temp. it should be around 125-130degF)
5.) RUN THE PACK!

from the run:
1.) pulse discharge down to 0.9v per cell
2.) rest for atleast 1hour
3.) linear discharge down to 0.9v per cell
4.) charge @ 5 or 6amps with 05mv delta settings (adjust depending on the cells peak temp. it should be around 125-130degF)

**packs i used, IB4600.
-peaks around 5100mah (after 3months of use.)
-peaks around 4700-4800 (after the 3rd month.)

Just always make sure that after using the pack, put a partial charge in it. around 15-20minutes of charge time and check them after 3-4days for voltage drop in your ctx-d2.

Enjoy LIPO hahaha! kidding
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Old 01-01-2009, 03:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trips View Post
cyclone speed,

I can offer some advice, first tell me the settings you're using on your charger. I have the cell master here, so I know the charger well.

Also, let me say right now that there may be no problem at all, some of my new packs seem to take a shorter than normal charge the first few times.

When your packs finished charge, did they peak cutoff, or temp cutoff?
they peaked cut . the temp prob was showing 26.0° Celsius .
Im using 5.2 amp charge , 38 deg C temp cut of , 3 deltapeack mv for a 5 cell pack 4850 max capacity .
Thats all , how much do they take now?
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:25 AM   #13
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The settings you're running sound okay, except the temp setting and charge rate are a bit low. I'm charging 4600's at 6 amps, 3mv delta peak, and I'm using 51*C for the temp cutoff.

What I suspect is happening here is that your packs are just needing to break in for a few cycles. I'd just go ahead and use them some, and then see if they don't start accepting more charge.

The 3mv delta peak setting is a bit on the low side, but I'm using the same setting to be careful with my packs. I'm looking for long life rather than the absolute fullest possible charge each time. I used to run a 12mv delta peak setting, but my packs got pretty hot during charge... they'd thermal cut at the end of charge about as often as they'd peak cut at the 12mv setting. At 3mv peak setting, my packs ALWAYS end with a peak cut now.

When new, these 4600's were only taking like 3900 to 4200 of charge. Now I have about two practice days and three race days on these packs. One run on each of the days, so they've got like 5 cycles on them. Now they all take between 4900 and 5000 or so of charge. I'm betting that yours will come up as well after several cycles. Mine only came up to the 4900-5000 acceptance this last time out, so I guess five cycles to break in might be what you'll encounter as well, but conditions and packs can vary, so don't worry too much if they're not all the way there by the fifth time...

My battery routine is this:

I get to the track, and use a Turbo35 or Victor to dump the pack at 30 amps to 3.6 volts (4 cell packs) to remove the storage charge.

Tray the packs to .9 per cell to equalize.

Charge at 6 amps, 3mv delta peak, 50*C temp cut using the Cellmaster long lockout feature with a ten minute lockout specified. I try to start the charge about 55 minutes before it's time for me to run, but we don't run the strictest time schedule at my home track, so sometimes the pack finishes charging well before the run. If the pack has been sitting for more than ten minutes before the run, I'll hit it with 6 amps for 2 minutes in the middle of the heat before mine if I remember to do it.

Immediately after the run I dump the remainder of the charge on the Turbo35 or Victor to 3.6v (4 cell pack) and put away.

If I'm going to run the pack again that day, I'll tray to .9 per cell, and charge again when the pack has cooled,l but so far these packs have only been run once in any given day.

When I get home, I give each pack fifteen minutes at 6 amps for storage. I put the battery packs in a Tekin Battery Nurse for the week, the morning of the race they come out of the nurse and get packed to take take to the track.

The battery Nurse is something new to me. When I bought these packs, I intended for them to be the last NIMH packs I would buy. A buddy was selling the Nurse REAL cheap, so I picked it up. I ifigured for the low price he was asking, it would beat having a pack or two go bad and buying more in a few months. I don't think I'd have bought one new, it's pretty expensive. I'm noticing with the nurse that when I tray the packs before charging at the track, the lights all go out within a few minutes of each other... with my packs last season, I'd sometimes have one or two lights on the tray go out quickly, and the others take a long time, sometimes up to an hour or more. That tells me that the nurse is seeming to keep all the cells in similar condition, whereas last season some cells were holding up well and others were really weak.

If you come across a Battery Nurse at a really attractive price, or if you're on a much more liberal budget than I am, I'd say it's probably a good investment. if you plan to run NIMH cells for a while, I'd say it's good thing to have. You mentioned you're running 5 cells... The Nurse has settings for 4, 5 or 6 cell packs.
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:43 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trips View Post
The settings you're running sound okay, except the temp setting and charge rate are a bit low. I'm charging 4600's at 6 amps, 3mv delta peak, and I'm using 51*C for the temp cutoff.

What I suspect is happening here is that your packs are just needing to break in for a few cycles. I'd just go ahead and use them some, and then see if they don't start accepting more charge.

The 3mv delta peak setting is a bit on the low side, but I'm using the same setting to be careful with my packs. I'm looking for long life rather than the absolute fullest possible charge each time. I used to run a 12mv delta peak setting, but my packs got pretty hot during charge... they'd thermal cut at the end of charge about as often as they'd peak cut at the 12mv setting. At 3mv peak setting, my packs ALWAYS end with a peak cut now.

When new, these 4600's were only taking like 3900 to 4200 of charge. Now I have about two practice days and three race days on these packs. One run on each of the days, so they've got like 5 cycles on them. Now they all take between 4900 and 5000 or so of charge. I'm betting that yours will come up as well after several cycles. Mine only came up to the 4900-5000 acceptance this last time out, so I guess five cycles to break in might be what you'll encounter as well, but conditions and packs can vary, so don't worry too much if they're not all the way there by the fifth time...

My battery routine is this:

I get to the track, and use a Turbo35 or Victor to dump the pack at 30 amps to 3.6 volts (4 cell packs) to remove the storage charge.

Tray the packs to .9 per cell to equalize.

Charge at 6 amps, 3mv delta peak, 50*C temp cut using the Cellmaster long lockout feature with a ten minute lockout specified. I try to start the charge about 55 minutes before it's time for me to run, but we don't run the strictest time schedule at my home track, so sometimes the pack finishes charging well before the run. If the pack has been sitting for more than ten minutes before the run, I'll hit it with 6 amps for 2 minutes in the middle of the heat before mine if I remember to do it.

Immediately after the run I dump the remainder of the charge on the Turbo35 or Victor to 3.6v (4 cell pack) and put away.

If I'm going to run the pack again that day, I'll tray to .9 per cell, and charge again when the pack has cooled,l but so far these packs have only been run once in any given day.

When I get home, I give each pack fifteen minutes at 6 amps for storage. I put the battery packs in a Tekin Battery Nurse for the week, the morning of the race they come out of the nurse and get packed to take take to the track.

The battery Nurse is something new to me. When I bought these packs, I intended for them to be the last NIMH packs I would buy. A buddy was selling the Nurse REAL cheap, so I picked it up. I ifigured for the low price he was asking, it would beat having a pack or two go bad and buying more in a few months. I don't think I'd have bought one new, it's pretty expensive. I'm noticing with the nurse that when I tray the packs before charging at the track, the lights all go out within a few minutes of each other... with my packs last season, I'd sometimes have one or two lights on the tray go out quickly, and the others take a long time, sometimes up to an hour or more. That tells me that the nurse is seeming to keep all the cells in similar condition, whereas last season some cells were holding up well and others were really weak.

If you come across a Battery Nurse at a really attractive price, or if you're on a much more liberal budget than I am, I'd say it's probably a good investment. if you plan to run NIMH cells for a while, I'd say it's good thing to have. You mentioned you're running 5 cells... The Nurse has settings for 4, 5 or 6 cell packs.
OK ,i wil try ur setting , cycle them few time but for how long should i let them rest between each charge or discharge , should i let them rest until they get too cool down ?
Also that i didnt mention , my father bought these packs on the 12 of december , they where unassembled but promatch said that they where fully charged, then i got them for christmas and i had them soldered the 30 of dec , so i havent touched them for 18 days . then when i got home with my assembled packs , i charged them and they took 800 mah each because they where already fully charged before as i mentioned , they selfdischarged themselvs , then i discharged the packs to 0.9 v and recharged them but they only took 4100 mah .
Have i damaged them by charging them instead of discharging them just after they where soldered ??

Is 4100 mah enough to go racing on carpet with a 3.5 BL motor ?



Also forgot to say that when i pulse discharge them to 0.9 v, not all the cells get at 0.9 v the same time ,between the first cell and the fith cel is about 3min of time .

Also , whats the diference between tray and discharge or pulse and linear?
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:09 AM   #15
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OK ,i wil try ur setting , cycle them few time but for how long should i let them rest between each charge or discharge , should i let them rest until they get too cool down ?
Yes, if you're going to run them more than once the same day, let them cool back to room temperature. Right after the run, dump the remaining charge at 30 amps, then let them cool to room temp. Then tray to .9 per cell, then charge again.

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Originally Posted by cyclone speed View Post
Also that i didnt mention , my father bought these packs on the 12 of december , they where unassembled but promatch said that they where fully charged, then i got them for christmas and i had them soldered the 30 of dec , so i havent touched them for 18 days . then when i got home with my assembled packs , i charged them and they took 800 mah each because they where already fully charged before as i mentioned , they selfdischarged themselvs , then i discharged the packs to 0.9 v and recharged them but they only took 4100 mah .
Have i damaged them by charging them instead of discharging them just after they where soldered ??
I don't think you damaged them by charging them before discharging that first time, if they didn't come off the charger really hot, they're fine.

Quote:
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Is 4100 mah enough to go racing on carpet with a 3.5 BL motor ?
I'm not sure i'd want to race a 3.5 on carpet regardless of the cells, that's going to be one VERY fast car, but I wouldn't worry about the charge... you'll probably gain a little bit of run time once the cells have broken in, but it's not going to be much difference at the kinds of current draw a 3.5 can pull.

Quote:
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Also forgot to say that when i pulse discharge them to 0.9 v, not all the cells get at 0.9 v the same time ,between the first cell and the fith cel is about 3min of time .
Three minutes is very good, I've only seen that with pretty new very healthy packs. I've had packs that the last light on the tray went off 45 minutes after the first, which to me says the first cell was pretty weak, but the packs still felt fine on the track. I'm not running anything like a 3.5 tho, but I was running low turn brushed mods this past summer with packs that looked WAY out of match on the tray but still went fast and made runtime.

Quote:
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Also , whats the diference between tray and discharge or pulse and linear?
The difference between tray and discharge is that when I say I'm discharging the pack before putting it on the tray I'm hooking the pack up to a Turbo35 or Victor charger that can discharge the pack at a straight 30 amps, down to 3.6 volts (if you do this with a 5 cell pack, you'd only go down to 4.5 volts) The tray discharges much more slowly... Your muchmore tray has a 30 amp pulse or 5 amp linear setting if I'm not mistaken, but the 30 amp pulse is still a lot slower than a straight 30 amp discharge... the pulse discharge is supposed to prevent crystal formation in the cells and keep them happy and healthy longer. If you don't have a charger that can do a straight 30 amp discharge, just run the car until you notice the power drop off. Don't run until the car stops, just until you feel the power drop off and the car slows noticeably. If you keep running til the car slows to a crawl, you're probably hurting one or more cells in the pack. That'll be pretty much the same as doing the pre-tray discharge that I'm doing. If it's not convenient to run until the car slows (like your heat just ended and you have to get off the track for the next heat to run) then just tray on the 30 amp pulse setting instead. When the pack cools, tray again right before you charge (if you're going to run it again) To be honest, with a 3.5 you won't have a whole lot of charge left in the pack to dump after a five minute run... The post-run high amperage dump is most useful for stock class racing... after a run there's a good three or four minutes of runtime left in the pack, without the dump, my tray (Novak Smart Tray) would take an hour or two to get the cells down to .9 volts.
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