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Old 12-30-2008, 07:03 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Trips View Post
If I have three or four 17.5's and I want to know which to put in the car for race day and which to beat on in practice, that dyno starts looking pretty handy...

I want to see whether I should run my speedo in sensor mode, and how much endbell timing and boost I should run, or if I'd be better in hybrid mode and how much advance to run, then the dyno starts looking even more handy...

When I can alter the timing map of the speedo (coming soon, the speedo wars are not yet in full swing)) and see what changes it made to the motor's powerband, the dyno is looking priceless...
And you want to do all this......in stock!!!


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Oh, just wait a while. They said the same thing when the first 27 turn stock motors came out and look where they ended up. There will always be a group of hardcore guys that will figure out how to make motors faster and then everyone has to follow. Guys that are'nt the best drivers use the extra horsepower to keep up. I was never the best driver, but I could build horsepower! Mark my words, by this time next year, someone will have figured out how to make a 17.5 run almost like 13.5 does now.
And one day both of you will be sitting there wondering why no one races RC any more.
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:59 PM   #122
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No, actually a lot of guys race R/C cars because they LIKE to work on stuff to see if they can make it better. Not everyone just wants to come out and drive. Racing by nature is driven by a competitive spirit and I'm not sure that I've ever met a racer that would turn down some extra horsepower if offered to them. I would venture to bet that there are some oval guys out there as we speak trying to figure out a way to tweak a 17.5 brushless motor to give them that little edge.

It's that competitive spirit that keeps the products and sport as a whole evolving. If everyone were complacent with the speeds that are available, nothing new would be invented and the current crop of racers would eventually get bored an move to a new hobby.
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:52 PM   #123
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And you want to do all this......in stock!!!
Not that i WANT to, but i don't want to just assume that any motor I happen to buy is good enough. Keep in mind, when you're talking a stock class or any spec motor class for that matter, choosing the better of two motors could be the difference between TQ and second... or making the A or being the BQ.


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And one day both of you will be sitting there wondering why no one races RC any more.
I'm wondering why anyone races NOW... I get to the track at 8, and before 8:30 I've already heard three or four people asking when we're going to get out of there... I look forward to race day all week, the LAST thing I want to think about when I get to the track is how soon I can get out of there... I would NEVER leave if it were an option...

I'll tell you when I'll stop racing... when the hobby gets dumbed down to the point where I might as well be home on the couch playing Need for Speed on a game console, then I'll just stay home on the couch. I didn't switch to brushless because the ten minutes it took to cut the comm and re-brush a stock motor after the second round was such a hardship, I switched when the brushless 17.5's got me around the track faster. If I can go faster by investing some time and effort into the hobby, I consider it time well spent. Hell, back in the LIMRA days I'd have my lathe out all day, and on the typical race day I'd cut ten or twelve comms for the guys that didn't have a lathe. It never seemed like work, it was all fun.

In another thread you remarked that racers have gotten lazy... I'm not so sure... I think the current crop of guys who want nothing more than to charge, race, and get home as early as possible aren't in it for the same reasons I am. If someone is having a good time driving and doing as little work as possible on the car, motor and batteries, the I don't see it as a bad thing... as long as we're all out there having a good time. But for me putting in the work is integral to the fun.

I want to try something different, to see if maybe I can't come up with something that works better than what Mike or Donny are running that day. I know it's not likely, but trying to do that is why I go out week after week.

On another note... when are you going to come out racing again? I miss hangin with you at the track!
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:03 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
And you want to do all this......in stock!!!




And one day both of you will be sitting there wondering why no one races RC any more.
Yes, shame on both of you for being excited about the sport and working on every possible thing you can for the sake of the fun the performance and learning... SHAME....

From my experience the guys that are the most excited end up running things and are better ambassadors to the sport than people who don't put in the time and put less into the hobby.

Who would you rather have run your club? Somebody that doesn't care as much or somebody that really enjoys it and pursues every level of the hobby?

and perhaps Jiml needs to remember that "stock" is a motor designation, not a skill level.

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..On another note... when are you going to come out racing again? I miss hangin with you at the track!
You miss him at the track?, problem solved, give it the gas and dive the corner. You'll get him.
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:40 AM   #125
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and perhaps Jiml needs to remember that "stock" is a motor designation, not a skill level.
Mean time , while these ambassador`s dominate stock, beginners stop racing .....
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Old 12-31-2008, 02:07 AM   #126
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Mean time , while these ambassador`s dominate stock, beginners stop racing .....
Don't even get me started....

Then the genius that talked the beginners into racing a VERY fast class should be talked to. A stock motor is not slow. NOR, is a stock motor a qualifier for a skill level. And in my opinion, has ALWAYS been a lousy motor for a beginner to start with (after a few days, it's probably time to step up but not the first race). Noob's, 90% of the time do what they are told, enter the classes they are told.

What's more discouraging, getting lapped 5-10 times and knowing it's because you're a noob (and noob's expect it), or taking your car home in a sack, as you pushed right into the wall at the end of the straightaway...WFO. Then watching the marshal pick up your car and it's now 3 feet long with wires and broken stuff holding it together?

Also, why is it beginners feel they are going to kick ass and be competitive right off the bat? Who started that idea? When I started racing motocross at age 38, I don't recall anybody caring at all (other than my wife who thought it was stupid), nor did I expect to do well. But I had fun, based on the people around me.

It's not about on track positions with the noobs, some people think that, never is.

When they are new and excited about the sport is when it's easier to justify a few bucks, would be a good time to get them a more suitable motor. You can buy an elcheapo brushed motor, much slower than a 27, anymore for less than $20. Maybe even less than $12 if you know where to shop.

I've loaned motors just like that to many noobs at the tracks when it's their turn. Any seasoned vet that's worried about the noobs, should be doing the same. You already know you're going to be helping with his car... so take the initiative. Now the noob has a bud to look to for guidance and some camaraderie. Now they look up to the fast guy, and UNDERSTAND WHY HE IS FAST...

I watched a dad and son (noobs, the pair of 'em) struggle with a touring car at a race we were at. It was awful, we've all seen it. Car doing 60 foot circles one direction, j-hooking the other, pulling hard to one direction going down the straight, tires all tore up. Pick up the car and one rear arm hangs down 1/2" further than the other... getting cornered and removed from the track, as the pack fell out (along with the receiver)...These guys were setting records for bad luck and broken stuff. I finally went and helped out. Took 3 hours, during a race day, 3 HOURS to get the car to work right. They had no idea what any of the nobs on the radio did...nothing (bought it at a pawn shop). Long story short, the kid finally had some fun as the car worked and they had some family time and they are still racing to this day. The dad later took me to the side, kind of a shy fella, and with a tear in his eye shook my hand and thanked me for all the work and the parts. He said he just wanted to a little father son thing, and he could see on his sons face the frustration, and not being mechanical in the least he couldn't help and didn't know what to do and he felt bad for starting him down that path. It was quite humbling, to be honest. I kind of tear up a little thinking about it, still. I totally knew where he was coming from, as I was there with my son, trying to have a little family time. And what's pitiful is at the end of all the tinkering, I'd actually missed a few heats, and was maybe a tad irritated on the inside, but didn't show it. There was a lesson learned that day, and it wasn't by the father and son.
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Old 12-31-2008, 02:25 AM   #127
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Mean time , while these ambassador`s dominate stock, beginners stop racing .....
Believe me, if I could figure out a way to get four or five other guys to run mod or even super-stock, I'd be there in A HEARTBEAT. I've been asking every Sunday for YEARS, I just can't pry anyone out of stock.

I don't dominate stock, never could get around well in stock class. I came up in mods, and for years it was all about how much throttle you DIDN'T use getting around the track... It took me a long time to learn to have the light throttle finger that mods demanded, and it seems damned near impossible to UNLEARN the style.
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Old 12-31-2008, 04:44 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
No, actually a lot of guys race R/C cars because they LIKE to work on stuff to see if they can make it better. Not everyone just wants to come out and drive. Racing by nature is driven by a competitive spirit and I'm not sure that I've ever met a racer that would turn down some extra horsepower if offered to them. I would venture to bet that there are some oval guys out there as we speak trying to figure out a way to tweak a 17.5 brushless motor to give them that little edge.

It's that competitive spirit that keeps the products and sport as a whole evolving. If everyone were complacent with the speeds that are available, nothing new would be invented and the current crop of racers would eventually get bored an move to a new hobby.
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Originally Posted by Trips View Post
Not that i WANT to, but i don't want to just assume that any motor I happen to buy is good enough. Keep in mind, when you're talking a stock class or any spec motor class for that matter, choosing the better of two motors could be the difference between TQ and second... or making the A or being the BQ.

I'm wondering why anyone races NOW... I get to the track at 8, and before 8:30 I've already heard three or four people asking when we're going to get out of there... I look forward to race day all week, the LAST thing I want to think about when I get to the track is how soon I can get out of there... I would NEVER leave if it were an option...

I'll tell you when I'll stop racing... when the hobby gets dumbed down to the point where I might as well be home on the couch playing Need for Speed on a game console, then I'll just stay home on the couch. I didn't switch to brushless because the ten minutes it took to cut the comm and re-brush a stock motor after the second round was such a hardship, I switched when the brushless 17.5's got me around the track faster. If I can go faster by investing some time and effort into the hobby, I consider it time well spent. Hell, back in the LIMRA days I'd have my lathe out all day, and on the typical race day I'd cut ten or twelve comms for the guys that didn't have a lathe. It never seemed like work, it was all fun.

In another thread you remarked that racers have gotten lazy... I'm not so sure... I think the current crop of guys who want nothing more than to charge, race, and get home as early as possible aren't in it for the same reasons I am. If someone is having a good time driving and doing as little work as possible on the car, motor and batteries, the I don't see it as a bad thing... as long as we're all out there having a good time. But for me putting in the work is integral to the fun....
Very well said!! This is after all a Hobby. The tinkering is why I do it. Sure the racing is fun, but I don't drive 3 - 6 hours for some "big race" over 2 or 3 days only for 32 total minutes of race time. It is about the whole expeirence.
I've said it before perhaps we need to only run 2 classes per scale:
Spec - spec sealed motor/tire/battery/speedo settings/body (you get the idea nothing to work on, everyone "equal')
and
Hobbyist - maybe a set wind and battery voltage and TUNE AWAY

I wonder which class would survive the longest!!!
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:04 AM   #129
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For what my opinion is worth, give the racers the choice, don't take it away from them.

Some people like to tune a brushed motor, others like to hook a brushless motor upto a programmer and dont want to spend time cutting comm's...
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:45 AM   #130
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and perhaps Jiml needs to remember that "stock" is a motor designation, not a skill level.
See, that I don't agree with. I have no problem with people trying to get the best out of their equipment and playing around with motors. There's a class for those people, it's called modified!!!

Stock was always supposed to be a class where everyone has the exact same motor, well at least the same amount of power. You weren't supposed to be able to "tune" a motor with different brushes and springs. You did that in modified. Rebuildable stock motors killed all that (yea thanks Ernie)
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:47 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
No, actually a lot of guys race R/C cars because they LIKE to work on stuff to see if they can make it better. Not everyone just wants to come out and drive. Racing by nature is driven by a competitive spirit and I'm not sure that I've ever met a racer that would turn down some extra horsepower if offered to them. I would venture to bet that there are some oval guys out there as we speak trying to figure out a way to tweak a 17.5 brushless motor to give them that little edge.
It's that competitive spirit that keeps the products and sport as a whole evolving. If everyone were complacent with the speeds that are available, nothing new would be invented and the current crop of racers would eventually get bored an move to a new hobby.
Yes Steve they already do, the oval scene has been running these for a couple years now, and they do buy multiple motors, and rotors, I have even seen a guy take a magnet meter to all the motors and rotors in a shop looking for the strongest one. I have also seen the guys polish rotors like they were still in bushings!! Take apart the end and dremel some kind of stop off the timing ring so they can squeeze that extra out of that motor

I just want want the blended 17.5/27T class either gone or seperated. I just don't think the two are equal. I know when I goto the Nats this year I HAVE to bring all the equipment just to try to see which is faster at that perticular track.
Maybe have a 27T handout class like always and have a 17.5 class also, just not together.
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:26 AM   #132
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[QUOTE
I watched a dad and son (noobs, the pair of 'em) struggle with a touring car at a race we were at. It was awful, we've all seen it. Car doing 60 foot circles one direction, j-hooking the other, pulling hard to one direction going down the straight, tires all tore up. Pick up the car and one rear arm hangs down 1/2" further than the other... getting cornered and removed from the track, as the pack fell out (along with the receiver)...These guys were setting records for bad luck and broken stuff. I finally went and helped out. Took 3 hours, during a race day, 3 HOURS to get the car to work right. They had no idea what any of the nobs on the radio did...nothing (bought it at a pawn shop). Long story short, the kid finally had some fun as the car worked and they had some family time and they are still racing to this day. The dad later took me to the side, kind of a shy fella, and with a tear in his eye shook my hand and thanked me for all the work and the parts. He said he just wanted to a little father son thing, and he could see on his sons face the frustration, and not being mechanical in the least he couldn't help and didn't know what to do and he felt bad for starting him down that path. It was quite humbling, to be honest. I kind of tear up a little thinking about it, still. I totally knew where he was coming from, as I was there with my son, trying to have a little family time. And what's pitiful is at the end of all the tinkering, I'd actually missed a few heats, and was maybe a tad irritated on the inside, but didn't show it. There was a lesson learned that day, and it wasn't by the father and son.[/QUOTE]

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Old 12-31-2008, 08:44 AM   #133
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Let the people run brushed or brushless at the big races.....

As for stock 17.5= this should be left to begginers and sportsman....

When we had 13.5 class as stock a lot of fast guys hung on to this class for dear life and now that 17.5 is officially called stock these same guys moved down and are claiming 13.5 is too fast... lol
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Old 12-31-2008, 10:03 AM   #134
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The first installment of Chicken Soup for the R/C enthusiast. Bob, your going to have to write a book some day.
Yea, it was late, I was tired... does look a little wishy-washy... Tru though.

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See, that I don't agree with. I have no problem with people trying to get the best out of their equipment and playing around with motors. There's a class for those people, it's called modified!!!

Stock was always supposed to be a class where everyone has the exact same motor, well at least the same amount of power. You weren't supposed to be able to "tune" a motor with different brushes and springs. You did that in modified. Rebuildable stock motors killed all that (yea thanks Ernie)
What about the poor guy that wants two run to cars? he's got too run stock and mod at the club level.

The THEORY of stock would be that everybody had the same motor. until you get passed on the straight and think about it. Mind you, the Theory of stock, relative to being a "noob only " class is a hold out from about what 1975? and when did stocks become rebuildable 18 years ago? they were half the speed then...

Back then, stock really was comparatively slow, you actually wanted to go faster and looked forward to mod. Now stock is fast enough, that most can't hang onto it. And mod is just stupid. If mod is such a great place to be why only 14 guys running mod touring in Cleveland? It ain't because you need more battery and motor. We have all you can stand.

Where's Johnny Wishbone on this? He's been racing since Chassis' were made out of thinly sliced marble.
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Old 12-31-2008, 10:33 AM   #135
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What about the poor guy that wants two run to cars? he's got too run stock and mod at the club level.
Wow, starting early on the New Years celebration, eh?

So based on your answer, I have to ask the question, how do we get new people into the hobby, and have them stay? To put all this effort into stock, you're scaring away anyone new. No one wants to spend that kind of money, especially in this economy. I can't tell you how many people I have introdued into this hobby, only to see them turn away because it's too expensive to get started.

Oops, sorry, serious thread hijack, I'll shut up now.
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