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Old 12-26-2008, 05:00 PM   #106
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Now that I think about it a little I think we'll be surprised at what motors end up in th A at Nats if they let brushed run. Brushed has had pretty much zero development lately and brushless has seen some changes since last year.

I still think that brushless only is the way to go at Nats but with brushed development pretty much stopped brushless will catch up and pass brushed fairly soon. Especially in 12th if the weight is raised.

Brushed should stay at the club level for now and maybe even regionals. Regions is pretty much a big club race in many areas (not all).
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post
...Otherwise if I run the nats I guess I'll be cutting motors or maybe just stay home...
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...Regions is pretty much a big club race in many areas (not all).
And those two responses sum up what I consider to be the biggest problem with racing. Not which motor...blah...blah...blah...

Both replies are actually the right way to go, not a less desirable outcome.

If there are less people attending large events in favor of smaller "home" events, guess what. The clubs do better, regional events actually have some meaning and national events TRULY are the big show... not just another event everybody tries to get to. As it is now it's almost like a national club race, same guys over and over. The big events are so common and frequent that for some, they are almost like club racing for the rest of us.

Remember when regional events were the big show, and there were HUNDREDS of people there, and it meant something? I hope that's the direction all this is taking us. No offense to the folks that work tirelessly to put on the big shows. I know it's a thankless job, and I personally thank you for that hard work.

I think if you're holding a national event, you can pretty much announce any specs you want and people will do it. Especially if it's a minor change. If you can afford a week off of work, a week of hotel living, airfare, entry fee's, etc. You can afford whatever motor it is they require. So I don't know why that should be an issue.

No "financially challenged" club dudes are dumping $2500 to take in the Birds, or any event that needs to be flown to. So why gripe about a few hundred bucks in motors...at a MOTORSPORT event? It's not a car show, it's a Motorsport event. Which is what this thread is about the motor. I would add, if you can't afford to run whatever is popular at the time, you can't afford to run whatever is popular at that time...DON'T GO!!!

Worrying about the motors at national events is the opposite of what needs to happen. Most A-main guys aren't worried about it, they have what they need. And if you're worried about it, you shouldn't go. And if you can't afford to go, but are still trying, get your priorities in order.

If a dude makes the effort to run a brushed motor now at a national event, and he's happy to do it, and maybe even knows he's giving up a little something to the brushless crowd, I say, Good for Him. That guys heart is in the right spot. He's not asking for anything, he just wants to play and have a good time, be part of the experience. he's not trying to change anything or limit what the others do to make himself more competitive.

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Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-27-2008 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:52 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
I would add, if you can't afford to run whatever is popular at the time, you can't afford to run whatever is popular at that time...DON'T GO!!!
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And if you can't afford to go, but are still trying, get your priorities in order.
One day I will remember to start a thread that has some of these great quotes of common sense.. and hopefully have it stickied.
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Old 12-27-2008, 08:51 AM   #109
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I would like to see similar price caps put on "stock" brushless motors as there were on stock brushed motors. Say, $50 or less. Unless I'm mistaken, there's no rule setup like this. With the older motors it wasn't quite as expensive buying up 5 motors to find the fastest one. With motors costing twice as much in brushless, it's going to put more of a hurting on racers wanting to attend large events.
One proble with that, all brushed stocks are machine wound as per rules, all stock brushed have bushings as per rules. Both keep the price down and tuning ia the difference, easy to impose price limits on them. Brushless stocks are hand wound, because the slotted design (essentually a brushed motor turned inside out Minus brushes) can't be machine wound. Brushless stocks also have bearings, to maintain better control of the magnetic fields , also bushings won't last in brushless. Till they lose the slot design and build like a fegaio/lehner design (that can be machine wound) you really can't impose a $50.00 limit on a brushless
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:05 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
At the last Carpet Nats in Omaha the top 14 racers were running brushed in 17.5/27T TC's!! CO27's to be exact, even the Reedy team, and alot of the Novak racers. It was the first of the BYOM races. I think we should do away with the 17.5/27T class altogether. Just 13.5 and Mod if you want my 2 cents. In 17.5 we are running spurs for pinions!!
Let's not forget, the last off road electric worlds, both classes were won by brushed. I know its mod classes, but still viable for a few years
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:12 AM   #111
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... Brushless stocks are hand wound, because the slotted design (essentually a brushed motor turned inside out Minus brushes) can't be machine wound.
I've programed my share of winding equipment in the Auto Industry, if it can be hand wound it can be machine wound...albeit not as neatly sometimes, but looking at some of the poor windings I've seen from some brushless manufactures, their hand winding leaves something to be desired.

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... Brushless stocks also have bearings, to maintain better control of the magnetic fields , also bushings won't last in brushless.
The price difference of bearings -vs- bushings for an OEM is neglagable.
Bushings wear due to increase in heat and friction. While I'm not 100% on this I think the lower RPM turned in Brushless would be easier on bushings than brushed is.

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... Till they lose the slot design and build like a fegaio/lehner design (that can be machine wound) you really can't impose a $50.00 limit on a brushless
The leading cost right now is most likely R&D and tooling expense, once that is absorbed they could probably make them a lot cheaper....but I doubt they will.
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:30 AM   #112
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Bob you don't hurt my feelings this is a hobby for me and its supposed to be fun. Brushless has really made it a lot more fun. I'm more concerned with the fairness of brushed versus brushless in regards to speed. Its much easier for everyone to be one way or the other at national events and leave the "mixed" motor classes to club racing.

Not that it matters but I own a local carpet and dirt track in Nashville I'm aware of how rules etc make or break a track and classes.... I don't like TA but it carried our tracks through the summer as well as the slash class... people want cheaper and more fun classes.... most want lipo and brushless so they can just have fun and drive not stress out cutting motors and building/switching batteries...

Rules are made for equality whether its real racing or toy car racing.
Whats the point in rules if they aren't kept up to date. Its just like when nascar allows a new aero package they make adjustments as needed within a matter of weeks or months if a new technology comes in and adjustments need to be made to make it fair...

They don't sit there for a year and say oh well thats what the rule book says...

$.02
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:31 PM   #113
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... In case one hasn't noticed, the Novak race is no longer a brushed motor race anymore either.
That's because it's a Novak only motor race in all classes. They will allow mod/foam to run other motors. Gotta do that or the big show is limited as to who can attend. That's a business agenda on Novaks part. And more than reasonable as it's their race.
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:39 PM   #114
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Bob Stormer for Roar president.... Pig also agrees
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:58 PM   #115
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That's because it's a Novak only motor race in all classes. They will allow mod/foam to run other motors. Gotta do that or the big show is limited as to who can attend. That's a business agenda on Novaks part. And more than reasonable as it's their race.
Modified foam isn't limited to Novak motors and neither is the Modified Rubber other than you can't run anything hotter than a 10.5.

I had to go out and buy a Novak motor just for that race.
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:33 PM   #116
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Bob Stormer for Roar president.... Pig also agrees
You know that movie, head of state with Chris Rock? You know that part where he's day dreaming about why he's been given the opportunity to run for president... and he gets shot while on the podium?

Likely, a similar outcome.
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:35 PM   #117
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CypressMidWest mentioned dynos. Here's my experience.

Over the years I've known people who will spare no expense trying to go faster. Several of them purchased the $600 Competition Electronics dyno, hooked up to a laptop and everything. They would spend hours with a motor getting the dyno numbers into the unheard of category. They put that motor in the car, and it's an absolute dog! Slower than when it first came out of the package. Then they started tuning the motors to how best they ran in the cars, then put them on the dyno. And according to the dyno the motor sucked! I haven't seen a motor dyno in 2 years.
That's all in how you use your tools and the information they give you. If the numbers are in the "unheard of" category then they've simply killed the efficiency. If your smart enough to use the tools to find what you need, rather than just tune for a huge power number, you end up with motors that run fast for the whole eight minutes rather than scream for the first min then drop off like a rock after that.
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:51 PM   #118
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The people I was talking about know how to use these tools, and more often than not found the dynos were a waste of money.

This is even more true for brushless motors. There isn't a whole lot you can do to these motors, so a dyno comparison doesn't do you much good.

Brushless speedo software doesn't do much except change the timing. Most racers I've spoken to have cranked the timing way up, and started burning out motors. They take the timing back to where the motor lives longer, and notice very little drop off in speed.
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Old 12-30-2008, 01:18 PM   #119
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This is even more true for brushless motors. There isn't a whole lot you can do to these motors, so a dyno comparison doesn't do you much good.
If I have three or four 17.5's and I want to know which to put in the car for race day and which to beat on in practice, that dyno starts looking pretty handy...

I want to see whether I should run my speedo in sensor mode, and how much endbell timing and boost I should run, or if I'd be better in hybrid mode and how much advance to run, then the dyno starts looking even more handy...

When I can alter the timing map of the speedo (coming soon, the speedo wars are not yet in full swing)) and see what changes it made to the motor's powerband, the dyno is looking priceless...
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Old 12-30-2008, 04:17 PM   #120
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There isn't a whole lot you can do to these motors, so a dyno comparison doesn't do you much good.

Brushless speedo software doesn't do much except change the timing.
Oh, just wait a while. They said the same thing when the first 27 turn stock motors came out and look where they ended up. There will always be a group of hardcore guys that will figure out how to make motors faster and then everyone has to follow. Guys that are'nt the best drivers use the extra horsepower to keep up. I was never the best driver, but I could build horsepower! Mark my words, by this time next year, someone will have figured out how to make a 17.5 run almost like 13.5 does now.
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