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Old 01-01-2009, 04:02 PM   #151
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Firstly, just to show that my heart is in the right spot, I'm up with the family skiing for the weekend, and here i am hanging with you mugs... (click the attachment, it's a pic from my balcony). That's where I could be... here is where I want to be. Well, I did sneak out this morning for a bit, and likely tomorrow for a bit Point is, this is important, and FUN, so here I am with you blokes.

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Originally Posted by OvalDude99 View Post
They see the cost right away, the sticker shock factor. If you tell that perspective new racer he has to spend $200 on a car, $200 on a motor and speed control and then another $100(or more) on a couple batteries just to get going, it will scare him away. I feel a lot of us more experenced racers do not see that.
Can you count how many times you have been asked at the track "that looks like fun, how much does it cost to get started?"]
Were off topic anyway, and it's really of little concern. Because there really is no point to the original thread anymore. Do we really need to debate if we should allow the existing legal and arguably slower motors to continue to run if they want to. The answer is yes let them run. and that's it. When the green machine fell out favor, did we re-write the rules? No, we didn't use it anymore and it took care of itself. Knock yourself out and bring an older motor if it makes you happy. Why discourage a budget dude if he can make the event? Might not make you fast, but it's legal. We gripe about new technology for the noobs, and try to make the cheaper technology illegal at some events...

To the point of expense.
Seriously? If a hobby was ONLY about money, and only about the dollar values shown, nobody would ever buy any item in excess of $500 (using the above example from ovaldude).

Dirtbike & gear, $7500
quad, $8000
snowmobile, $9000s
Snowboard, $400
snowboard roof rack, $500
Boat and waterski stuff, $27,000
stock car, $10,000
golf clubs, $2,500
Karting, $15,000

Ever price rock climbing gear? I know a guy that is pretty tap'd out right now... He managed to somehow find and justify the need for himself to add $4500 worth of lenses to his camera bag... he doesn't take pics for a living... $4500!?!?!?!? are you kidding me? I think he told me he was having trouble making his car payment...

Poeple spend money on hobbys. You don't "INVEST" money in a hobby. You do invest time in a hobby, but the return is not financial, it's fun, satisfaction commaraderie, family, etc. If you "invest" $30k in a boat, you're not going to be happy with the financial outcome of that investment in 5 years...

Hobbys have expenses. That's all there is to it. If it were only about the money, none of that other stuff would sell...ever. So where do some go wrong in attracting their noobs? YOU GOT THE WRONG NOOB... AND, it's okay to jump from hobby to hobby. Did yll the noob THIS is what you'll be doing for the rest of your LIFE! Of course not. If you get a guy in a hobby he can't afford, he's gonna quit. You know why? BECAUSE HE CAN'T AFFORD IT. And if you can't afford $500 to toss out a few times a year, RC might not be for you.

If racing is not fun in your area, guess what, he's gonna quit anyway, and then blame everything else. It's about the fun. Racing flourishes where it is fun. ANY hobby, flourishes where it is fun.

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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Brushless offers an opportunity where you could seal the handout motor so no one could take them apart. If the seal is broken, the motor is illegal. It might make things more equal. Remember we're talking stock. If you wanna go faster, run super stock.
I disagree, at major events, stickers or not, they're gonna pull the motor apart, to ensure there has been nothing "funny" going on. And they should do motor tech, keeps people on their toes.

I don't want to go any faster... STOCK is to fast. This is why, a great amount of people, when given the chance, go faster with a stock motor than a mod... because the stock is right on the edge of what they can control. you don't have to go to far down the list at a major event to find guys running stock and mod that are turning more laps with stock.

And the reason that is? Anybody.
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Should Stock Brushed Motors go away in higher level events?-big_mntn.jpg  
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:27 PM   #152
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You know what I feel "might" really going on behind the original topic of this thread? Is it possible, maybe, just maybe, that there are a few folks that dislike brushed motors so much, but in the back of their minds they entertain the "what if" of somebody making it work again, so that somehow brushed could be the edge... but with more work.

is it possible we are really trying to eliminate some work for a few folks that might be scared of it?

<---Loves a good conspiracy theory.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:31 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
You know what I feel "might" really going on behind the original topic of this thread? Is it possible, maybe, just maybe, that there are a few folks that dislike brushed motors so much, but in the back of their minds they entertain the "what if" of somebody making it work again, so that somehow brushed could be the edge... but with more work.

is it possible we are really trying to eliminate some work for a few folks that might be scared of it?

<---Loves a good conspiracy theory.
I would be afraid of redoing my entire car to brushed just for one race. In addition to buying a speedo, buying 3 co27's and paying my buddy to tune them. Where instead we could just all run our 17.5's which everyone at the big races already has their stock car set to run as.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:41 PM   #154
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Where is that your skiing Bob?
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:44 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post

To the point of expense.
Seriously? If a hobby was ONLY about money, and only about the dollar values shown, nobody would ever buy any item in excess of $500 (using the above example from ovaldude).

Dirtbike & gear, $7500
quad, $8000
snowmobile, $9000s
Snowboard, $400
snowboard roof rack, $500
Boat and waterski stuff, $27,000
stock car, $10,000
golf clubs, $2,500
Karting, $15,000
I noticed you left out one of your personal favorites: Heaven knows that was not cheap!

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Old 01-01-2009, 05:01 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by mauromj View Post
Where is that your skiing Bob?
Big Mountain, In Whitefish, MT.
http://www.skiwhitefish.com
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:14 PM   #157
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Not cheap. MASSIVELY FUN though, Just got to far to drive and to much time away from work. *sigh* I still miss it... every single day... I'm still slightly involved, on the fringes with those guys.

Went out on top and retired as the 5 time national champion. Cold turkey quit... we were on the road about 4 months a year... it was just to much and we were always gone. and according to the TV crews, we were "goegraphically undesirable". I had a discovery TV crew follow us around for a week in late 2000. they never aired it though.

You want to make any motorsport a LOT more expensive? Put it on prime time TV.

Man, could I tell ya stories about that hobby. One of the funnest periods of my life. Great people.

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I noticed you left out one of your personal favorites: Heaven knows that was not cheap!

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Old 01-01-2009, 05:43 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by KHoff7 View Post
I would be afraid of redoing my entire car to brushed just for one race. In addition to buying a speedo, buying 3 co27's and paying my buddy to tune them. Where instead we could just all run our 17.5's which everyone at the big races already has their stock car set to run as.
Real world costs here, not list prices:

Brushed Brushless
Top line speedo: 126.95 Top line speedo 229.99
3 CO27 motors: 90.00 3 motors 240.00
20 pairs brushes: 65.00 no brushes, YAY! 0.00
paying a tuner paying a tuner to
to tune motors: ??.?? test and tune ??.??
total so far: 281.95 total so far: 469.99


I make a few assumptions here. You're going to buy 3 CO27's for this event, so obviously you need to buy 3 brushless motors to get a reasonable chance of getting a "good" one. No one wants to buy one motor for a big event and find it's a dog when they get to the event. Since you said you're buying this stuff, you're not a sponsored racer, and not tied to one brand of electronics, so if you're serious enough to buy 3 Co27's and pay a tuner to tune them, you want a shot at making the show. Better think about buying a few different speed controls, you really want to run the one that'll be fastest at the big event. Brushed it wouldn't matter, at full throttle ALL brushed speed controls are essentially nothing more than an "ON" switch. Brushless, EVERYTHING happens in the speed control. Everything. I tested four different speed controls before I settled on what I'm using now.

You don't have the time or inclination to tune three CO27's, you're DEFINITELY not going to have the time or inclination to track test three different brushless 17.5's to see which is the best of them. And then to track test that motor with all the different possible settings in the speed control to see which settings work best. And then repeat all that to find out which speed control is the one you want to have in the car for the big event...

I'm not in the business, but I can make a Co27 sing. I'd probably charge $25 or 30 bucks to tune an new out of the package Co27. So for your three motors, figure I['d give you a little volume break because I don't have to drag the lathe out and set it up three times, so 69.95 would be my price for the motor tuning. Brings the brushed grand total to $351.90

If was going to do the track testing I described for three brushless motors, and possibly two or three speedos, I'd probably need to spend three maybe four solid days at the track. Figure ten hours a day at a budget rate of fifteen bucks an hour for the time and effort, you're looking at $600. That's buddy pricing, by the way. Brings the brushless grand total to $1069.99. I'm not sure you'd find a tuner who does it for a living that'll match my 600.00 price. You'll probably find one who will "tune" your brushless motor, or "blueprint" it for thirty or forty bucks, but if you believe there's any real benefit to that, then let me offer you a really nice bridge I'm not using anymore...

Oh wait... you DID say you could just run the 17.5 you already have... well if you're not going to put any of the effort in with brushless, you don't really care about getting it in the show, why do it with brushed? I'll just run the Co27 I already have. I already know how to make it work. I'll just bring three or four sets of brushes to cover the qualifiers and main. Sounds okay, you run what you already have, I'll run what I already have. If you're not willing to make the effort with a 17.5, why do you care if I run a 27 brushed?

Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not some die-hard brushed hold out. I did the testing on the track, and I'm running 17.5 because I get around faster with it. Maybe the powerband of the 17.5 fits my driving better, much more likely is that I can't make a CO27 sing as well as I thought I could. But I can read a lap time priintout. After a bunch of testing I settled on a 17.5 motor/speedo combination that works better for me than the brushed setup.

So if I go to the big event, I'll be running brushless because it's better for me. But if someone wants to run brushed, I say go ahead and run brushed.
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