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Old 12-31-2008, 10:41 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Trips View Post
Believe me, if I could figure out a way to get four or five other guys to run mod or even super-stock, I'd be there in A HEARTBEAT. I've been asking every Sunday for YEARS, I just can't pry anyone out of stock.

I don't dominate stock, never could get around well in stock class. I came up in mods, and for years it was all about how much throttle you DIDN'T use getting around the track... It took me a long time to learn to have the light throttle finger that mods demanded, and it seems damned near impossible to UNLEARN the style.
Problem is when stock is the only class everyone runs the race program suffers, and dies....


Can`t have stock and mod , we need to change their name to intermediate and expert and watch the Sedan program begin to regrow and thrive...


Can`t have it both ways, two class`s that compete against each other equals doom for the sport...
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:10 AM   #137
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Wow, starting early on the New Years celebration, eh?

So based on your answer, I have to ask the question, how do we get new people into the hobby, and have them stay? To put all this effort into stock, you're scaring away anyone new. No one wants to spend that kind of money, especially in this economy. I can't tell you how many people I have introdued into this hobby, only to see them turn away because it's too expensive to get started.

Oops, sorry, serious thread hijack, I'll shut up now.
I think part of the problem is that for as long as we still refer to this passion of ours as a hobby and not a recognised sport people will always find a way to justify not getting involved due to the money needed. Call it a sport and all of a sudden it seems more viable to throw more cash at it. I don't know why but that just seems to be the way it is. The more glorious it is, the more the cash frees up to justify the involvement.

I know for a fact that in one form of motorsport, the high end shop expects the average person off the street to drop 15k for the first season, with an additional 10-12k the second season, and they don't expect this person to be back for the 3rd season. And by the way, because of equipment homologation, the equipment you bought is only good for 4 years at most, and pretty much worthless for resale after that. So where is this going? Just insert the nubie into the same scenario, he bought his stuff, he doesn't like it, so he throws it in a box and goes on, the shop is happy as they got their money, the manufacturer got his cut, and the next nubie has nicely walked in the door.

Do we make this sport more expensive so a person can't afford to quit once they start? Or do we make it so cheap that it can be disposed of easily without any strain on the wallet? So far both scenarios have been applied and yet nothing changes. Make the technology harder, (coms, zappers, batteries) or make it easier (brushless, Lipo) it just doesn't seem to matter. You could have a car ready, charged and sitting on the grid, and you'd still be hard pressed to get someone to run, or at least come back for a second turn. People are just like that.

As much as one thinks that ROAR should do something to make it more popular, the question continues to haunt them, WHAT? I never did figure it out, never did and probably never will. There is no magic formula to make it happen, you have your core group of enthusiasts, people come, people go, life goes on. You just get a short chance to make friends, keep friends and loose friends.

Marble, come on Bob, Noah and I actually had the plans drawn up for a copper car, but then those damn rains came along and screwed everything up.
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:18 AM   #138
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Well to get back on subject...

The question is should stock be a brushless motor only class at regional and national events?

The facts, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Most people have already switched to brushless.

Most of the big independent races are brushless only, and nobody said boo about that.

Brushless has an advantage over similar brushed motors, given the same car weight.

So the logical conclusion is yes, at regional and national events, stock should be brushless only.

And here's another question, should ROAR have handout 17.5 motors at national events?
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:26 AM   #139
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As much as one thinks that ROAR should do something to make it more popular, the question continues to haunt them, WHAT? I never did figure it out, never did and probably never will. There is no magic formula to make it happen, you have your core group of enthusiasts, people come, people go, life goes on. You just get a short chance to make friends, keep friends and loose friends.
Holy cow you get it!!! ROAR cannot make racing popular by itself. It's the racers and the local tracks that do it. All ROAR can do is come up with something in the middle that covers as many racers as possible. You cannot have something for everyone.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:25 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Well to get back on subject...

The question is should stock be a brushless motor only class at regional and national events?

The facts, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Most people have already switched to brushless.

Most of the big independent races are brushless only, and nobody said boo about that.

Brushless has an advantage over similar brushed motors, given the same car weight.

So the logical conclusion is yes, at regional and national events, stock should be brushless only.

And here's another question, should ROAR have handout 17.5 motors at national events?
Yes
Yes
Most times
Yes
Yes

You have a PM.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:38 AM   #141
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<--- against hand out motors. All they ever do is add expense to any event. And at no time has a constant D-main guy, because of his "equal handout motor", dominated the A-main.

Hand out motors change nothing. And you still have to pass tech with it... so why not pass tech with what you already have?
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:51 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
As much as one thinks that ROAR should do something to make it more popular, the question continues to haunt them, WHAT? I never did figure it out, never did and probably never will. There is no magic formula to make it happen, you have your core group of enthusiasts, people come, people go, life goes on. You just get a short chance to make friends, keep friends and loose friends.
I started to write a respinise about yet another spec class for new racers, and about a third of the way through I'm already thinking 'this won't work", so let me go WAY out on a limb and suggest that maybe it's not about a new spec, or a new sealed motor, or anyhting of that nature. Maybe what ROAR, (or maybe the tracks themselves) need to consider is some sort of mentoring program...

What i see a LOT of is that a new racer might come along and no matter hoe excited or enthusiastic, R/C racing is one complicated discipline. There's a TON to learn, and not that I want to make a sexist remark, this hobby IS pretty much a guy thing. Guys don't like to ask directions. Guys don't read the manual. Guys don't like to ask for help. Most of my friends will drive around in circles til the tank is empty before stopping to ask for directions, then give up and go home without ever getting to where they were going.

Maybe we need to figure out a way to get someone over the top of the learning curve (wait, i know there really is NO END to the learning) or at least over the initial hurdles to the point where he no longer feels like an outsider... can talk and ask questions without having that insecure inner voice telling him to shut the hell up before he makes an idiot of himself...(I don't know if we outgrow that or not, my little inner "shut up" guy is as loud in my head as ever)

If it's not an appropriate thing for ROAR to tackle, maybe it could work at the shop or track level... Get some of the experienced racers (hopefully the patient, good people skills ones) available to be mentors, and work with the new racers to get them past the humps and stay with it. I know I felt like quitting many times in the beginning... but I'd been through the process once with slot racing, (yes i AM old) so it was not as big a deal for me as it might be for someone coming in with No racing experience...

Maybe it's even simpler... How about we just make an effort to be more welcoming and friendly to the new guys we meet at the track this year? Maybe that'll be enough to get 'em to want to keep coming back.

I guess I have a REAL resolution for '09. Hell, quitting smoking wasn't going to work anyway.
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:04 AM   #143
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wow... how off topic was THAT??

Back to topic... I don''t think ROAR should specifically ban stock motors at level 4 and 5 events, but let them fade away naturally. Maybe a weight change in classes where brushless can't get to the spec, like 1/12. But not so high on the weight that you effectively kill brushed with one stroke. I'd say 835 for 1/12 might be a good place.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:29 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
<--- against hand out motors. All they ever do is add expense to any event. And at no time has a constant D-main guy, because of his "equal handout motor", dominated the A-main.

Hand out motors change nothing. And you still have to pass tech with it... so why not pass tech with what you already have?
I completely agree, but unfortunelty the entry did not reduce when it was BYO motor last Nationals

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... mentoring program...
What i see a LOT of is that a new racer might come along and no matter hoe excited or enthusiastic, R/C racing is one complicated discipline. There's a TON to learn, and not that I want to make a sexist remark, this hobby IS pretty much a guy thing. Guys don't like to ask directions. Guys don't read the manual. Guys don't like to ask for help. Most of my friends will drive around in circles til the tank is empty before stopping to ask for directions, then give up and go home without ever getting to where they were going....
Great concept and Idea, difficult to implement. Our club took a unique approach a few years ago. We had a 3 man team competition in rubber T/C. with about 30-40 drivers (at the time) it worked well. Each Team had to be made up of a normal 'A' main driver a middle of the road driver and lower main driver. It was to everyones benefit to help each other at least within the Team. As a recently un-retired RCer, new to T/C and Rubber tires I was the lower driver but with help and extra motivation I ended the second season as the top driver on our team. An 4 years later, I'm full tilt addicted again.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:40 AM   #145
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Just to head off anyoone thinking I had some great idea there, the whole idea of mentoring rather than coming up with yet another spec class for the fast guys to take over was inspired from Bob Stormer's post a little ways back on the page... I have a hunch that father and son will be sticking around the scene.

WTG Bob!
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:54 AM   #146
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Ken,

I LOVE the team idea, and I think it would a great way to get people involved in the mentoring thing... I'm going to bring the idea up at the track this weekend, it would be cool to get something like this going here.
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:01 AM   #147
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<--- against hand out motors.
Okay, that's one vote against.

Just to play counterpoint with you, what you described was true of brushed motors. No doubt the first thing anyone did with a brushed motor was take it apart and do all kinds of things with it (all legal, well at least thats what they told me).

Brushless offers an opportunity where you could seal the handout motor so no one could take them apart. If the seal is broken, the motor is illegal. It might make things more equal. Remember we're talking stock. If you wanna go faster, run super stock.
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:27 AM   #148
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First off, NO I have not switched to brushless. I have been playing this game for about 20 years and I am more comfortable with my brushed motors. Will I go with brushless, yes, when I learn more about them, just like lipo batteries.
I know this is about stock brushed motors and my opinion is that, as has been said before, todays motors are 10 times what they were even 10 years ago, that technology. Motors are better, batteries are better and so are the electronics.
The club I race with does not allow lipo and brushless simply due to cost.
I have herd it all before, how using lipo and brushless is cheaper in the long run but the person looking to get started doesn't see that. They see the cost right away, the sticker shock factor. If you tell that perspective new racer he has to spend $200 on a car, $200 on a motor and speed control and then another $100(or more) on a couple batteries just to get going, it will scare him away. I feel a lot of us more experenced racers do not see that.
Can you count how many times you have been asked at the track "that looks like fun, how much does it cost to get started?"

I commend those who are making and doing things that are going to help control the rising cost of all this.
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:50 AM   #149
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For those that want to read the post above in a friendlier format:

--quote

First off, NO I have not switched to brushless. I have been playing this game for about 20 years and I am more comfortable with my brushed motors. Will I go with brushless, yes, when I learn more about them, just like lipo batteries.
I know this is about stock brushed motors and my opinion is that, as has been said before, todays motors are 10 times what they were even 10 years ago, that technology. Motors are better, batteries are better and so are the electronics. The club I race with does not allow lipo and brushless simply due to cost. I have herd it all before, how using lipo and brushless is cheaper in the long run but the person looking to get started doesn't see that. They see the cost right away, the sticker shock factor. If you tell that perspective new racer he has to spend $200 on a car, $200 on a motor and speed control and then another $100(or more) on a couple batteries just to get going, it will scare him away. I feel a lot of us more experenced racers do not see that. Can you count how many times you have been asked at the track "that looks like fun, how much does it cost to get started?"

I commend those who are making and doing things that are going to help control the rising cost of all this.

--end quote
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:40 PM   #150
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I say let them run what they want. Let brushes fade on there own. I do not own or ever will own a stock motor ever again. I'm 13 years into this and I think it should be raced like a Slash class. Stock is the butcher to sedan racing to my experience. Any program with out a mod class usually fails or barely hangs on. Mod racing is the inspiration we all need to excel and a goal to advance in our skill level.

Wheres Mr. Black when we need a reminder of his Signature.

"The solution is people need to spend more of their efforts on promoting and finding more people to race with, rather then a personal quest to form a class that they can win at."
To me this means accept the Challenge win lose or draw be a Champion to racing and run Mod.

We all have to start racing some where and in some class. Its where we end up that matters.

Mod the true racers drivers class.

Go Fast and try not to CRASH!
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