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Old 12-29-2008, 07:03 AM   #106
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Um, Dave, I think he was responding to me and connecting 2 lipo cells in series. 2Ah at 7.4v would probably dump at 4 minutes.

But I agree with you. 1/12 scale racing was always about planning your race and saving enough for the end. You actually had to think about what you were doing up on the driver's stand, not just stab and steer. You had to be more than a good driver, you had to be a smart driver. That's what's missing from RC racing today and why we keep seeing declines in the hobby.

And on road racers have gotten lazy. No one runs modified any more because it requires more thinking. You have to pick a motor and gearing based on your strategy, not just run what everyone else is running. Back at South Shore they tried running 1/12 mod. They shortened the races to 6 minutes. My first reaction was how the f are you not making 8 minutes with 3000mAh batteries? Then I found out, everyone was driving like they still had stock motors.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:16 AM   #107
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We used to make eight minutes no problem with 1200 mah nicads and mod motors that were less efficient than the 13.5's of today. We made time with 14 turn brushed motors and 1700mah Nicads, we made time with 2000mah nicads... I don't think making eight minutes with a 2000 LiPO would be an issue.

I'm not so sure that anyone who has been racing 1/12 for less than ten or fifteen years will understand how to drive to make time, but believe me it can be done. One of the things I LOVED about 1/12 racing was the fact that you couldn't just tear into the throttle for eight minutes... you'd not make it past six doing that. The idea was to go as fast as you could without usiing up the energy too soon.

Some saw dumping as a "problem", others saw it as part of what made 1/12 racing great. Count me among the others.
Ok, I'll bite. I tried 2 cell LiPo about 2 years ago at CEFX. It was murder on the diff and the speed was insane. Dumping wasn't a problem with the 3000 mAh pack I had but tire wear and the speed on the straight was rediculous. I only ran a 10.5 and it was insane. I can't emagine how a 5.5 would run on 2 cells.

Don't forget all the downsides we had in the "old days". You know "team only" cells. Mike Reedy handing out packs in the order that he felt people were driving that day. Guys fighting over 10 seconds of runtime because it was almost a lap. 12th was as much a battery war as it was a "drivers class".

We can't go back to the old days.

Don't think we'll dump on a 4000 mAh lipo? Someone dumped at Cleveland this year in the mod main. And it was an oldschool driver that can drive to make time. The top drivers are dumping with 5000 mAh (actual) so don't think for a minute that we won't be dumping with 4000 mAh and a hotter motor.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:41 AM   #108
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I don't get the big argument over lipo guys. When this thread was started it had nothing to do with Lipo vs. Nimh weight difference. It was about the ROAR min 1/12th weight in regards to the brushed vs. brushless 4-cell application.

I'm a huge lipo proponent but the lipo 1/12th guys need to give it a break on this thread cause lipo AIN'T happen in ROAR 1/12th at any level 4 or 5 event in 2009. In fact I can't really see it happening in ROAR anytime soon as a combined class either. If and when it will most likely end up separated until such time that it truly becomes the standard as defined by racing ROAR members and not mfrs or their sponsored drivers.

If the lipo guys want to argue weight and performance, by all means do so, but please do it in your own thread and stop jacking this one.
I agree, this isn't really the thread to be discussing LiPO issues. Sorry, I'm one of the ones who jacked the thread...

As far as brushed vs. brushless weight issues, I don't believe it's really a big issue... there's not that much of a difference between brushed and brushless, at least in my experience.

I'd leave the current 795 gram weight stand, at least for 2009 if it were up to me. For club racing where LiPO may run with NIMH, I'll be over a bit with my NIMH brushless setup, but not so far that it's an issue to me. If the LiPO cars are meeting 795, it's cool with me.

I switched to brushless and didn't gain much weight over my brushed setup. Not enough to hurt performance. I'm just as fast with the slightly heavier brushless setup, but my lap times don't fall off near the end. My only weight issue is with the 3.7 LiPO cars that will be running in the class at club races. If they meet 795, I'm fine with it. If they hit the track at 750 and under, I think it's an issue, but not really a ROAR issue, at least this year.
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:55 AM   #109
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Ok, I'll bite. I tried 2 cell LiPo about 2 years ago at CEFX. It was murder on the diff and the speed was insane. Dumping wasn't a problem with the 3000 mAh pack I had but tire wear and the speed on the straight was rediculous. I only ran a 10.5 and it was insane. I can't emagine how a 5.5 would run on 2 cells.

Don't forget all the downsides we had in the "old days". You know "team only" cells. Mike Reedy handing out packs in the order that he felt people were driving that day. Guys fighting over 10 seconds of runtime because it was almost a lap. 12th was as much a battery war as it was a "drivers class".

We can't go back to the old days.

Don't think we'll dump on a 4000 mAh lipo? Someone dumped at Cleveland this year in the mod main. And it was an oldschool driver that can drive to make time. The top drivers are dumping with 5000 mAh (actual) so don't think for a minute that we won't be dumping with 4000 mAh and a hotter motor.
+1
People were dumping 2000s in 1/12 stock 10 years ago if you weren't careful.

Even in touring car, average 2000 cells were only good for about 2-3 extra laps after a 5 min race. That's why the TC3 was so great, it would do 4-5 after race laps with the same batteries
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:40 AM   #110
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Is the weight issue only a concern in stock then? And if it is does it really matter if we end up brushless only in stock at the nationals in '09? Super Stock is brushless by rules and modified has been pretty much brushless is by choice. If we end up brushless only in Stock do we really need to change the min. weight?

Last edited by schurcr; 12-29-2008 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:49 AM   #111
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I just want to make sure where the weight is going to be when the carpet on-road nationals get here. I want to be prepared and hope that the ROAR commitee does not change it a week or two before the race. If the weight is going to remain at 795 then fine. I have no problem with that or the 865 or whatever weight. I just need to know "for sure" so I can make my decision as to whether or not I am going to run brushed or brushless. This is for 1/12 scale and it doesn't matter to me stock 13.5 or mod.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:52 AM   #112
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I second that If the weight it 795, then I'll pull out my brushed stuff!!
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:55 AM   #113
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Um, Dave, I think he was responding to me and connecting 2 lipo cells in series. 2Ah at 7.4v would probably dump at 4 minutes.
Jim,

I know he was respondinig to you, but I was responding to him... 200mah at 7.4v will make time. No problem, unless you drive it like someone who came up in the last few years. When I said we made eight minutes with 1200mah Sanyos, that was with 6 cells, 7.2 volt packs. Couldn't go much hotter than a 20 turn motor, maybe a 19 if you had a light trigger finger, but it was doable. We ran 2000mah Sanyos in 6 cell mod in Texas in 2000 and made eight minutes no problem. Fast as hell, too on super grippy asphalt. I think I ran a 12 or 13 triple. If you tried to rip for eight minutes you didn't get there. If you drove smart, you made it.

I'll stand by my position that anyone who raced 1/12 mod back in the day and made runtime then would be able to make time with a 13.5 on a 7,4 2000mah LiPO.

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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
But I agree with you. 1/12 scale racing was always about planning your race and saving enough for the end. You actually had to think about what you were doing up on the driver's stand, not just stab and steer. You had to be more than a good driver, you had to be a smart driver. That's what's missing from RC racing today and why we keep seeing declines in the hobby.

And on road racers have gotten lazy. No one runs modified any more because it requires more thinking. You have to pick a motor and gearing based on your strategy, not just run what everyone else is running. Back at South Shore they tried running 1/12 mod. They shortened the races to 6 minutes. My first reaction was how the f are you not making 8 minutes with 3000mAh batteries? Then I found out, everyone was driving like they still had stock motors.
There you go. 1/12 scale was once a thinking game... it wasn't just about driving strapped from tone to tone. The nice thing about the days when stoick was the beginner class was that you started in stock and learned to control the car. Then you moved into mod and learned to control yourself.

No more. And the guys that weren't there will never get it.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:13 AM   #114
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wow dave you just got off the phone with me asking me about t bar lipo and you said my car looks like a bucket of assholes.......................................... .................rough............................ .................................................. .................................................. .............................................i will have the bucket at the track sunday............................................ .................................................. .............
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:23 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Um, Dave, I think he was responding to me and connecting 2 lipo cells in series. 2Ah at 7.4v would probably dump at 4 minutes.

But I agree with you. 1/12 scale racing was always about planning your race and saving enough for the end. You actually had to think about what you were doing up on the driver's stand, not just stab and steer. You had to be more than a good driver, you had to be a smart driver. That's what's missing from RC racing today and why we keep seeing declines in the hobby.

And on road racers have gotten lazy. No one runs modified any more because it requires more thinking. You have to pick a motor and gearing based on your strategy, not just run what everyone else is running. Back at South Shore they tried running 1/12 mod. They shortened the races to 6 minutes. My first reaction was how the f are you not making 8 minutes with 3000mAh batteries? Then I found out, everyone was driving like they still had stock motors.


i don,t think racers have gotten lazy at all i have been back a good 2 months and realize lipo brushless is alot faster than brushed...................the corner speed is tremendous difference...............17.5 is fast 13.5 is very fast.............it is a much different driving style than before............................................ .................................................. .............................................as for 12 scale lipo 3.7...........i think in 13.5 or 10.5 it would be awesome with like a 700gram minimum...little wear lotta speed............................................. .................................................. ....................................as for jim l personally i dont think your a bad guy i know i am harsh toward you............ but if you would come out and race with the racers ............you would have a better idea of what is goin on and why guys are running what the run......... rather than thinkin there gettin lazy
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:48 AM   #116
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Is the weight issue only a concern in stock then? And if it is does it really matter if we end up brushless only in stock at the nationals in '09? Super Stock is brushless by rules and odified is by choice. If we end up brushless only in Stock do we really needto change the min. weight?
Stock = 865gr, 4 cell, 17.5 Brushless ..... Sounds good to me ... now if I counted!
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:58 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Trips View Post
Jim,

I know he was respondinig to you, but I was responding to him... 200mah at 7.4v will make time. No problem, unless you drive it like someone who came up in the last few years. When I said we made eight minutes with 1200mah Sanyos, that was with 6 cells, 7.2 volt packs. Couldn't go much hotter than a 20 turn motor, maybe a 19 if you had a light trigger finger, but it was doable. We ran 2000mah Sanyos in 6 cell mod in Texas in 2000 and made eight minutes no problem. Fast as hell, too on super grippy asphalt. I think I ran a 12 or 13 triple. If you tried to rip for eight minutes you didn't get there. If you drove smart, you made it.

I'll stand by my position that anyone who raced 1/12 mod back in the day and made runtime then would be able to make time with a 13.5 on a 7,4 2000mah LiPO.



There you go. 1/12 scale was once a thinking game... it wasn't just about driving strapped from tone to tone. The nice thing about the days when stoick was the beginner class was that you started in stock and learned to control the car. Then you moved into mod and learned to control yourself.

No more. And the guys that weren't there will never get it.
To expand on what Fred B. said... It was more a battery game than it was a thinking game. Yes, better driving and knowing how to conserve runtime while driving was important. However, there were people that couldn't run mod simply because they couldn't get the cells they needed or afford the proper chargers to make sure the batteries kept their match. I can remember going into Arlington hobbies and Danny pulling out the secret stash of Danimals like they were some illegal drug. So yeah, I get it and was there. But I don't ever want to go back to it...

Lastly, checking to see if someone is running 2 cell vs. 1 cell lipo is so simple I fail to see why it's even up for debate.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:00 PM   #118
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Nah Phil its cool there are others much harsher, and they mean it.

But you're missing my point about racers getting lazy. Back in the day it wasn't so much about what you ran it was how you ran it. In 1/12 scale (and remember back then that's all there was) there was no way you could make 8 minutes without being careful how you used the throttle. So you played with gearing and disiplined yourself to not overdrive your car. Today motors are so efficent and batteries are so good you can drive all out the entire race, doesn't matter how many boards you hit. A lot of people have left the hobby because equipment became more important. You can't out think another driver any more. Ask Dave or Bill about this, they were there.

And I saw the picture of you car, it doesn't look so bad. Just weird with the battery on one side.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:04 PM   #119
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To expand on what Fred B. said... It was more a battery game than it was a thinking game. Yes, better driving and knowing how to conserve runtime while driving was important. However, there were people that couldn't run mod simply because they couldn't get the cells they needed or afford the proper chargers to make sure the batteries kept their match. I can remember going into Arlington hobbies and Danny pulling out the secret stash of Danimals like they were some illegal drug. So yeah, I get it and was there. But I don't ever want to go back to it...

Lastly, checking to see if someone is running 2 cell vs. 1 cell lipo is so simple I fail to see why it's even up for debate.
The battery game came later on, as people figured out what they could do with nicads. And that was the start of the downturn. I don't want to go back to that either, but my fear is we will end up there with Lipo's.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:48 PM   #120
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Wahhhhhhhhh
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