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Old 12-26-2008, 09:08 AM   #61
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I say up the limit to 865 and you lipo cry babies can live with it till things get worked out and everybody is running them. I mean I still run nimh in my TC as I don't have a lipo charger. yes I have 4 chargers all nimh, so again, now I have to buy something to run a class you want changed NOW. get over it. run at the weight disavantage with your "convenice tax" till I rotate through my chargers and things will move along to the next big thing and you can all go out and buy LiFe chargers and batteries when they make the mainstream market next year. or wait for the sulfur-aluminum aqueous cell

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http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretran...7/07/batteries

But lithium-ion batteries aren't exactly trouble-free.

"In their charged state, lithium-ion batteries are intrinsically unstable," says Bart Riley, the CTO of A123Systems, a Watertown, Massachusetts, company that is using nanotech research to create a new and safer version of lithium-ion batteries
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:40 AM   #62
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Danny, what's the spec's on your 3.7v lipo? Weight, size? I am sure that I could dig, but since everyone is looking this direction, lets get it out in the open. I know that one of your Energy 4600 wired for saddle weighs in about 10.8 ounces. The battery is truly one of the chunky parts of the car.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:00 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Slapmaster6000 View Post
Danny, what's the spec's on your 3.7v lipo? Weight, size? I am sure that I could dig, but since everyone is looking this direction, lets get it out in the open. I know that one of your Energy 4600 wired for saddle weighs in about 10.8 ounces. The battery is truly one of the chunky parts of the car.
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they weigh around 4.4 oz
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:08 PM   #64
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Just my .02 run the class heavy until this lipo craze pans out. No use in changing it twice. Leave it be...learn, experiment have fun. Are your weekly local race bucks or whatever you get really that spectacular???
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:22 PM   #65
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So according to JRP's #, the 3.7 lipo vs 4600 has a difference of 180g or 6.4 ou. Take your average car weighing at 850g with nihm and replace with this lipo and we now have a 670g car. This is way below the current 794 (5) g limit. That has to goof up the weight balance of the car, but until those that have tried say otherwise, we wont know. IF and I mean IF... Roar was to consider a 2 class 12th scale format for a transitional year as 13.5 lipo with a 670+/-g weight and the other a 13.5 4 cell with 865g.... would that give everyone a happy place to be?

We know that sedans are going to be revamped with lipo exclusively in mind, we would be silly to think that 12th scale would not follow. It would look strange with a battery up the side of a t-bar car with the electronics on the other side.... but if thats what it takes, thats what they will build.

BMI has their electronics behind the battery in their DB10R.

Got some crazy wheels turnin' here....

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Old 12-26-2008, 06:40 PM   #66
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With my BMI 12RR (using all the steel screws, no lightening done), Novak 4 Cell GTB w/ big f'n cap, Airtronics 2.4Ghz reciever, MRT PTX, Novak 13.5 BL, and a Futaba 9650 servo paired up with a 1 cell SMC, Tires+ Speed 12 body the car rings in at 766gm. Add in the reciever pack or booster circ, and it will probably come in underweight still which is fine since weight will need to be added and moved around to offset the heavy BL motor and light battery.

Not sure there is much of a reason to rush to increase the min weight, since they will just drop it soon again back to about where it is now.
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Gitsum View Post
Just my .02 run the class heavy until this lipo craze pans out. No use in changing it twice. Leave it be...learn, experiment have fun. Are your weekly local race bucks or whatever you get really that spectacular???
Then we should keep it at 794. The current rules are the lighter one.

I say, Stock... 794 - Lipo 13.5.
Super Stock - 865 - Nimh - 13.5
Mod - 865 - Either battery, any approved motor.
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:38 PM   #68
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Time to make ROAR meow......

If it's the same typo then you might want to look at a different printer....

OK thats 1 mistake, any others that youse people missed?

Or better yet, what new rules are left out?

12 scale lipo.. How does the rules apply to battery receiver packs that some people will run? Or will it even be addressed?

Is RCtech now the ROAR official forum for ROAR issues?

One last shot, when was the last time ROAR had an Official ROAR F1 class that actually ran?

Might be time to thin the rule book out a little....
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:37 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
I say up the limit to 865 and you lipo cry babies can live with it
To which I respond "leave the existing weight limit in place and you brushless crybabies can live with it"

I wasn't a fan of going brushless in spec classes for a number of reasons, and as a club we're JUST allowing brushless now (only one guy has gone 17.5, too little experience to see any advantages) but my last couple weeks racing in Minot and Denver it is clear that 17.5 is the way to go. Especially if weights are equal. So I have to get my shizzit together and get my 17.5 car finished.

Also, re: brushless...spending this last couple weeks racing with everybody "whisper whisper whisper...latest Tekin unobtainium software...whisper whisper whisper...new Trinity motor smokes the Novak, Orion and Tekin motors I've already bought...whisper whisper whisper". Remember the bill of goods brushless advocates sold you (they never sold me!!) that brushless was going to cost so much less, make everything equal, yadda yadda yadda. Remember that? What a crock of shit. If anything it's costing more, and it ain't any different, equality-wise, than brushed motors ever were. Nice move, Ex-Lax.

I am DEFINITELY not a fan of single-cell LiPo. Receiver packs eliminate 150% of any convenience gains going LiPo may confer (yes, that's MORE than the actual convenience gain), and not knowing anything about boosters, etc it seems to me to be one more great grey area to legislate and monitor, much less fit into a 1/12 car which you may have noticed ain't got a ton of room under those component-hugging bodies.
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:46 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
I am DEFINITELY not a fan of single-cell LiPo. Receiver packs eliminate 150% of any convenience gains going LiPo may confer (yes, that's MORE than the actual convenience gain), and not knowing anything about boosters, etc it seems to me to be one more great grey area to legislate and monitor, much less fit into a 1/12 car which you may have noticed ain't got a ton of room under those component-hugging bodies.
The boosters from what I have heard should weigh about as much as a transponder, be about as big. Theres plenty of places to put something like that. and whats to monitor and legislate - they boost power for a reciever and servo... not a real big performance advantage possible there.

If you made a booster to some how feed the ESC and motor, the booster would be huge, heavy and hot as hell to handle that much current. So its sort of self regulating.

I dont think Reciever packs will be happening for much longer in 1 cell LiPo - I think sooner or later ESC's will start coming with BEC's that can handle stepping up voltage, or boosters will become as common place as transponders on chassis.
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:33 PM   #71
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The reason why we released the single cell Lipo was to have an alternative in power as we know sub-c cells are on the way out. Some of the racers who use Lipo in Sedan or other classes will not race 12th scale anymore as they like using Lipo.

I don't see how the change seems that complicated as many have tried it and it works well.

For does arguing about cost due to changing motors that can easily be fixed. ROAR can make single cell Lipo class use 17.5 that will reduce the speeds to what they were 5 years or so ago. Slower speeds equals tighter racing with less wear and tear which reduces cost.

For those who think I'm trying to push Lipo to make more profit for my business that is not the case as we make more porfit selling sub-c cells but bottom line they will become harder to get.
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:33 PM   #72
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Why are people reading so much into something that is so simple?

The weight limit in 12th is 800g (ish, give or take to odd 6g) across the World. IFMAR has failed to change to 800g. In the last couple of years, cells and speedos have managed to make cars weight 840g to 860g, more with a heavyweight shell. Within a year, we are back to 830g, and with the new LRP speedos and motors, and the Orion SHO 3700 cells, we will be back to 820g. Weight is not an issue.

The voltage limit in 12th is 4.8v. Danny's single-cell LiPo is rapidly becoming the de-facto standard to be adopted by National Associations across the World. In Mod, one simply motors up, in Stock we need to run 13.5 to keep up some speed but, as Danny says, 17.5 is the class to start with. With LiPo, making 800g is going to be easy. Voltage is not an issue.

A voltage doubler simply takes the pack voltage and increases it to feed the electronics - servo, speedo and PT. It cannot, and does not, increase the voltage to the motor. Any such device wold be so big and unwieldy it couldn't fit under the body.

Everything we need is in place. There is no need to change any Rules anywhere. No one has to use LiPo. If you want to use it, buy a Novak voltage doubler, an SMC LiPo, and a 13.5 motor. That's the class, that's what everyone wants. Get your Club to run it, ROAR to accept it and the job's done. Why is this so difficult?
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:11 PM   #73
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...That's the class, that's what everyone wants. Get your Club to run it, ROAR to accept it and the job's done. Why is this so difficult?
Because not everyone wants it. If those that do would put more effort into approaching this from a different class perspective you would probly recieve less argument. Sure it will be another class to thin things out more, but if it is truly "better" over time it will prevail. Till then remember, you 3.7 people are the ones rocking the boat as 4.8 is the established norm.

P.S. I started the thread over a debate for weight limit differences between Brushed and Brushless.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:25 PM   #74
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Because not everyone wants it. If those that do would put more effort into approaching this from a different class perspective you would probly recieve less argument. Sure it will be another class to thin things out more, but if it is truly "better" over time it will prevail. Till then remember, you 3.7 people are the ones rocking the boat as 4.8 is the established norm.

P.S. I started the thread over a debate for weight limit differences between Brushed and Brushless.
That’s BS though. The end is near for Sub C's just as it was for brushed motors back a few years ago. So what happened, Brushless and brushed folks found a way to work together. We ended up with a 17.5 BL that runs with 27T classes. Pretty much it was an engineering task to make something on parity with the old gear.

Well today - we face the same issue. SubC's are going away across the entire R/C industry at a rapid rate - more rapid than Brushed to Brushless... and the lack of LiPo is choking 1/12th attendance and numbers. So instead of thinking "OMG this is a new class... you can’t play in the same sandbox as us!!" and worrying that this will thin classes out - why doesn’t everyone realize this IS the future and work is being done by many people to make the class have parity with existing 17.5/4cell and 27T/4cell cars.

Instead of segmenting due to all the typical R/C paranoia that happens when any technology change comes along, maybe you endure a small period of "mixed class racing" to keep numbers high and help the sport.

and on the topic of weight... if everything is just a bit portly right now with the 4 cell/brushless setups... but is going to fall back to the weight we had years ago of around 800gm with LiPo and BL... why is everyone worrying or debating. By next year this will be a dead topic as we will have cars that are lighter than the spec weight anyway and have to start adding ballast again.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:37 PM   #75
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That’s BS though. The end is near for Sub C's just as it was for brushed motors back a few years ago. .......maybe you endure a small period of "mixed class racing" to keep numbers high and help the sport.
We can agree to disagree on the details, but the main reason that seems to pop up for declining attendance is the high speeds of today's cars...enter a mear 3.7 volts....but does anyone mention staying 17.5 or even dropping to 21.5 (ok a few mentioned it) no ever one wants to go the same speed....the problem won't be solved, only changed.

I am, and have said numerous times, I'm not anti-Lipo just anti 3.7 volts as the 'sole' solution.

I quit reading the Li-po 3.7v thread for all the propaganda and salemanship going on but has anyone really run them with 10.5 and made decent time. What will happen when the desire to improve occurs and we are locked into the pack size...lots of little questions that have some answers, but in general everyone seems ready to jump into this head on, I'm just not ready to yet, and as such I have stayed off those threads the last few weeks.
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