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Old 12-22-2008, 11:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
Well ROAR, I'm asking! Obviously with the phasing out of 19t and going 13.5 only your heading for brushless only, might as well be consistent with the rest of the brushless world and just make the 1/12 weight 865g brushed or brushless, that should truly level the field for 17.5.
I'd second that request. 4 Cell / Brushless 865.

If the single cell lipo becomes a class, it would be it's own with it's own weight. Then let the racers support the class as they see fit.

My 2 cents
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:21 AM   #17
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funny this comes up NOW....



the rule book will reflect 795. Can't change that.

If the track would like to request a deviation to IFMAR weight rules - I would ask them to notify ROAR immediately. Of course, ROAR will oblige with the host request for the national event and re evaluate the rule for the 2010 rule book.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:56 AM   #18
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funny this comes up NOW.... ...
I brought it up now because up till the last few days, I believed what both the rule book and a month or so ago the website said....silly me

Well how about it Chicky... you guys have already pulled off 1 miracle, how about a weight deviation request
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:35 PM   #19
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Not quite aware how some protocol works with Roar rules but, why can't the weight be changed immediatly to reflect current cars, motors, and current ifmar weight? Is this a member vote, Excomm vote, or just change it? Seems like 795 is an unrealistic number...
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:43 PM   #20
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795 has been the min weight for 1/12 4 cell for years. Brushless motors have made their way into on road for only about a year now. The problem with the 1/12 min weight with brushless motors has only now been brought to the attention of ROAR.

I believe the 2009 rules have already been written. A rule change can be made for 2010. However a host track can apply for a rules deviation.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:55 PM   #21
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865 is the norm.. Hopefully Roar will go with this also.. :-)



Mike
865 is the exception, not the norm. Only IFMAR has 865, everyone else in the World has around 800g - EFRA, JMRCA, ROAR, etc.

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865 grams is the IFMAR minimum. This takes into account the heavier brushless motors. ROAR has never run this weight. The 880g weight is for 6 cell 1/12 scale.

And if you think that's weird wait until we start asking for single cell LiPo for 1/12!
The IFMAR minimum reflects a cock-up years ago when we went 4-cell, and nothing else. Several attempts have been made to amend the 865 limit in IFMAR, but for some reason it always get suggested when its too late! Nothing to do with BL...

Now is exactly the wrong time to up the limit. BL equipment is getting lighter and lighter, and we can easily get to 820g to 830g with modern cars. What's being forgotten here is that the major weight increase is not BL systems (which are only marginally heavier) but the 4200 cells. We have collected upwards of 50g over the last few years on cells alone, and then there's the larger wheels, receiver packs (LiPo with regulators) heavier digital servos, etc.

With people now wanting to run single-cell LiPo, and lightweight voltage doublers to use, there is every chance that we can get to 800g in the next few years. If we up the weight limit, we are making some people add weight they don't need.

What limit will be chosen? My Stock car (BMI, so hardly lightweight in itself) with Orion SHO cells (good 3700s in 'old money') is currently 835g. Why should I have to add 30g weight just because someone else is using EnerG cells, or a receiver pack, or any other unecessary add-on?

The minimum weight is just that, a minimum. You can run any weight you like. LiPo will come, and when it does, what weight will we pick then, or will we make everyone add 60g+ to their cars - hardly sensible!

Leave it as it is, and let the developments be the choice of the driver on both weight and performance. Any effort to artificially raise a weight limit in a time of evolving technology makes little sense, and adds cost.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:03 PM   #22
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I believe the 2009 rules have already been written.
It may have been written but not set in stone. I raced brushless in 12th back when the LRP 3star bl motor first came out. So that weight limit has been around for awhile.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:17 PM   #23
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865 is the exception, not the norm. Only IFMAR has 865, everyone else in the World has around 800g - EFRA, JMRCA, ROAR, etc.

I'm assuming Mike means all the big races in the U.S. in the last year. Vegas, Cleveland, the upcoming Snowbirds. I think 865 is a good weight for 1/12. That is probably the average weight of a current brushless 1/12. My car had 1 7 gram sqaure of lead on it in Cleveland. In mod, with a speedo that has a heat sink, my car was over weight.

Even the lightest brushless combos are nearly 2 full ounces heavier than a brushed controller and motor.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:34 PM   #24
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I'm assuming Mike means all the big races in the U.S. in the last year. Vegas, Cleveland, the upcoming Snowbirds. I think 865 is a good weight for 1/12. That is probably the average weight of a current brushless 1/12. My car had 1 7 gram sqaure of lead on it in Cleveland. In mod, with a speedo that has a heat sink, my car was over weight.

Even the lightest brushless combos are nearly 2 full ounces heavier than a brushed controller and motor.


Thanks Tom... You are Correct... :-)


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Old 12-22-2008, 05:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by tfirsching View Post
I'm assuming Mike means all the big races in the U.S. in the last year. Vegas, Cleveland, the upcoming Snowbirds. I think 865 is a good weight for 1/12. That is probably the average weight of a current brushless 1/12. My car had 1 7 gram sqaure of lead on it in Cleveland. In mod, with a speedo that has a heat sink, my car was over weight.

Even the lightest brushless combos are nearly 2 full ounces heavier than a brushed controller and motor.
Well, then, don't change anything. Clearly, the big races can set whatever weight minimums they please, and they're dialed for the current gear. But, if single cell lipo is on the near horizon (and it clearly is), let the class sort itself out without the additional static of a sanctioned weight standard we would have to re-argue in a year's time.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:51 PM   #26
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It would seem that we could chat about this till the keyboard is caved. Cells have gained about 2 ounces since the 2000nicad, which I know has little relevance now a days. A b/l motor is only +/-5g from a 19t or mod, but roughly 20g heavier then a 27t. We added a pt. Maybe a speedo with a heat sink if you are running mod. There's no question that the equipment in a 12th scale has gotten heavier over the years. It's been 28 ounces or 794g for a couple of decades. Yes, the weight could be changed at a whim or with a deviation.... but why? Why now? Some have taken the time to review their equipment to keep their cars lean. Show me the guy with a bundle of 12 gauge wire and heat sinks and giant tires with a heavy weight body, gobs of shoe goo .... he could very well be the guy saying that 794g is not reachable while his ride tips the scale at a 1000g. This is cruel to say.... but that's not a race car. With some attention to detail, the weigh comes off easily. I am sure that if I really tried, I could do 794g, but I really don't think that there is a big enough difference between a car at 825 vs 875.

Ah... now see I've rambled and made no point.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:57 PM   #27
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Ah... now see I've rambled and made no point.
I should end most of my posts with this!
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:09 PM   #28
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I have tried for the last 2 years to bring up my concerns with weight in 12th scale. This was a problem even before brushless came along. The big problem I see with a weight limit being set too low is it causes racers to spend unnecessary money to make their car lighter. Usually as a consequence of the lighter car something will probably break easier, aluminum screws. Raising the weight limit to a reasonable level costs the racer almost nothing. Seriously, how much is a couple squares of lead?

If ROAR is contemplating bring in 1 cell lipo it needs to be it's own class with it's own weight limit. No more throwing everything together and then later trying to sort out how to make it comparable speed wise. I have seen the 1 cell in action and they are "similar" to a 17.5T 4 cell but they are not the same, especially if they are going to have a 65 gram weight break. The big difference I saw was the extra torque of the 13.5t along with the lighter mass of the car accelerating out of the corners, the straight speeds are comparable.

Just my 2cents.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:52 PM   #29
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the 2008 US INDOOR champs rules were 30.5 or 865 I also had to do the same and add 8 grams to make it with my tplate 12th scale which was a novak motor , lrp sphere no heat skin ko 951 servo (metal gears) and a small airtronics reciever with 4600s so yes some of the major non roar races have been running heavy. also the more the weight the better the traction the easier to drive the car.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:19 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
Single cell lipo is a VERY real happening currently in ROAR. We have requested submission of packs from MFG's to our lab for conditional approvals (so we may gather info to determine specs).... but for 2009, we will allow single cell lipo.... IF THE MFG'S ACTUALLY SEND SOMETHING TO ROAR FOR EVAULATION.

Our single cell Lipo is now at the ROAR lab.

I sure hope the case size will be frozen which I think this is the plan. If any manufacturer needs help with the dimensions of our case feel free to contact me and I can get them the proper drawings. We spent a good amount of money on this case and based on the response we got so far it seems the fit is very good and anything bigger may become a problem.
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