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Old 12-30-2008, 09:36 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by tfirsching View Post
I know that in oval racing, 7.4 lipo 21.5 and 4 cell NiMh 13.5 are very close in lap times. I'm not sure how well this info applies to 1/12 road though.
I think I'd like something around the same speed as a 4 cell 13.5, but that would probably be too much for a stock class...

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Originally Posted by schurcr View Post
Trips ..... if you want an indication of what 1/12th would be like with 21.5bl and 7.4v lipo just look to the oval guys where 21.5/lipo is too fast for stock racing and they're dying for a "STOCK" speed class with BL and Lipo.
I have to reluctantly agree... although at sub-700 gram weights, I think a 1/12 car will be full throttle for eight minutes... we barely have to let off now at 850 grams, maybe two or three spots per lap, and then we're only easing off to half throttle for a moment to get the car rotated...

I think this threead has been jacked enough at this point, and I'm probably the one most guilty of making it happen... I apologize, and respectfully request that we take any further LiPO 1/12 discussion HERE

Okay, back to topic... the weight limit for the upcoming carpet nats... way way way back in the day, I was told by Bob Emott of BIR that with all else the same, every extra ounce on the car meant a tenth per lap... That was in '79 or '80. Does anyone know if that holds true today?
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:45 PM   #152
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The only things being considered is an increase in 1/12th min weight and a change to BL only at ROAR level 4 and 5 events.
I'd say (though I'd be sorry to see it) go ahead and announce BL only at level 4 and 5 events...which kind of eliminates the need to change the weight minimum if everybody is playing on the same field power-wise. As has been indicated, there are people who have gotten their BL cars into the low(er) 800 gram range and I'm not keen on taking that effort away from them. I think everybody could get their cars into that range with some work if that's what's really important to them. To Brian's point, I think a lot of ado about nothing is being made, but what the hey.
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Old 12-31-2008, 04:06 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC View Post
I know of some tracks who have very poor turnouts in 12th scale as racers who have used Lipos in Sedan or other classes simply don't want to buy and deal with sub-c cells anymore.
.
Of course the T-bar guys will have to buy a new car, so it's a money saver too. ... I'm not running that pack up the side... seriously...
<thumbsdown on doing that to a T-bar car>

and as an aside... at least we got this weight thing properly hijacked and outta the way.

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To which I respond "leave the existing weight limit in place and you brushless crybabies can live with it"

I wasn't a fan of going brushless in spec classes for a number of reasons, and as a club we're JUST allowing brushless now (only one guy has gone 17.5, too little experience to see any advantages) but my last couple weeks racing in Minot and Denver it is clear that 17.5 is the way to go. Especially if weights are equal. So I have to get my shizzit together and get my 17.5 car finished.

Also, re: brushless...spending this last couple weeks racing with everybody "whisper whisper whisper...latest Tekin unobtainium software...whisper whisper whisper...new Trinity motor smokes the Novak, Orion and Tekin motors I've already bought...whisper whisper whisper". Remember the bill of goods brushless advocates sold you (they never sold me!!) that brushless was going to cost so much less, make everything equal, yadda yadda yadda. Remember that? What a crock of shit. If anything it's costing more, and it ain't any different, equality-wise, than brushed motors ever were. Nice move, Ex-Lax.
I think that's like the harshest thing I think I've ever seen you type. I kinda liked the lack of sugar coating that crock of shit thing nearly cost me a keyboard when I blew mountain dew out my nose.

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I am DEFINITELY not a fan of single-cell LiPo. Receiver packs eliminate 150% of any convenience gains going LiPo may confer (yes, that's MORE than the actual convenience gain), and not knowing anything about boosters, etc it seems to me to be one more great grey area to legislate and monitor, much less fit into a 1/12 car which you may have noticed ain't got a ton of room under those component-hugging bodies.
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Old 12-31-2008, 04:21 AM   #154
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Wait a second. I've got a car that lipo will work in. I'm cool... (it's light too)

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Old 12-31-2008, 04:34 AM   #155
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Wait a second. I've got a car that lipo will work in. I'm cool... (it's light too)
Wow the first of the purpose-built LiPO designs... I LIKE it... Fiberglass is all the strength you'll need because the lighter weight of LiPO means less damage in a crash... the upper deck battery mount keeps the CG of the car the same as current 1.12 scales, cheap synthetic foam will last forever with the lack of tire wear in a LiPo car... no need for confusing and annoying suspension in a 650 gram chassis...

Someone hurry up and make a three-wiper brushless speedo... I'm IN... let me know when you're taking pre-orders...
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:14 AM   #156
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Ahhhh...my first race car. 1986 it was.

Memory
all alone in the moonlight
I can smile at the old days
I was beautiful then
I remember the time I knew what happiness was
Let the memory live again
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:19 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
To which I respond "leave the existing weight limit in place and you brushless crybabies can live with it"

I wasn't a fan of going brushless in spec classes for a number of reasons, and as a club we're JUST allowing brushless now (only one guy has gone 17.5, too little experience to see any advantages) but my last couple weeks racing in Minot and Denver it is clear that 17.5 is the way to go. Especially if weights are equal. So I have to get my shizzit together and get my 17.5 car finished.

Also, re: brushless...spending this last couple weeks racing with everybody "whisper whisper whisper...latest Tekin unobtainium software...whisper whisper whisper...new Trinity motor smokes the Novak, Orion and Tekin motors I've already bought...whisper whisper whisper". Remember the bill of goods brushless advocates sold you (they never sold me!!) that brushless was going to cost so much less, make everything equal, yadda yadda yadda. Remember that? What a crock of shit. If anything it's costing more, and it ain't any different, equality-wise, than brushed motors ever were. Nice move, Ex-Lax.

I am DEFINITELY not a fan of single-cell LiPo. Receiver packs eliminate 150% of any convenience gains going LiPo may confer (yes, that's MORE than the actual convenience gain), and not knowing anything about boosters, etc it seems to me to be one more great grey area to legislate and monitor, much less fit into a 1/12 car which you may have noticed ain't got a ton of room under those component-hugging bodies.

I'm with my ol' buddy Bob Stormer in agreeing with this one. It's about time someone finally said it and put it all in one post.

I'm gonna save this one, and post it in every Lipo/Brushless/weight change/new ESC/new motor bitch session from here on out.
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:27 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
that crock of shit thing nearly cost me a keyboard when I blew mountain dew out my nose.
You know me...I'm here to entertain!

I just get so frustrated listening to people who really don't know what they're talking about (at least re: future ramifications), or if they do they're lying, trying to justify the latest tech(s) as costing less, being easier, being more equal, etc. Brushless motors have made racing cost more, plain and simple. And watching what I've seen thus far...in STOCK racing, mind you...it ain't any easier either. I watched guys spend more time in a day futzing with their laptop and esc than I have ever spent in a year turning comms and re-brushing motors. Then again, I never fell for the "ya gotta re-turn/re-brush every heat" line. Hell, I rarely re-brush or re-turn in a half season. It is exceedingly rare that I remove a motor from my car. Being the brutally honest with myself person I am I'm very aware that the little boost in hp I'd realize ain't what's keeping me from beating Mitch and Randy. It's skill, and I can't buy any of that or tune it at my bench. Though as I saw when I got to race (practice) eight of ten days leading up to Christmas (instead of the eight race days per year we can schedule here) I definitely improve with additional track time. Go figure.

And LiPo...anybody who tells me a LiPo pack is going to be easier at the same time it re-introduces receiver packs (honest to god quote: "they aren't so bad") leaves me shaking my head. I guess I'll wait and see what these booster thingies do and how easy they are to incorporate. I'm just looking SO forward to adding yet another electronic doo-hickey to my car that I'm lying awake nights like it's Christmas Eve all over again. I can hardly wait for St. Novak to come down my chimney and servo tape another transistor-fied bit of goodness to my car.
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:30 AM   #159
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A big, red warning flag should go up every time a manufacturer tells you that something is "good for the hobby".
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:36 AM   #160
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Wait a second. I've got a car that lipo will work in. I'm cool... (it's light too)
If I'm not mistaken, those would easily accept pretty much any of the 2s packs ala Orion, etc, wouldn't they? Heck yeah, bring back 6-cell 1/12 scale...it was SO easy to drive back when we ran weakling motors, it ought to be a TREAT with what we've got now!!
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:40 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by ~McSmooth~ View Post
A big, red warning flag should go up every time a manufacturer tells you that something is "good for the hobby".
But in this case it wasn't really the mfr's I saw out proseletyzing...it was racers here on RC Tech. Either the evil empire saw that the best way to get stuff stirred was to send out their stooges, or if these folks REALLY believed what they were saying... I said from the outset that it wouldn't make anything easier or save any money, and I recall Bob saying exactly the same thing. THERE'S honesty for you, Bob knew he'd realize many sales for the new product and STILL maintained it wouldn't do what the deciples claimed it would.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:39 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
You know me...I'm here to entertain!

I just get so frustrated listening to people who really don't know what they're talking about (at least re: future ramifications), or if they do they're lying, trying to justify the latest tech(s) as costing less, being easier, being more equal, etc. Brushless motors have made racing cost more, plain and simple. And watching what I've seen thus far...in STOCK racing, mind you...it ain't any easier either. I watched guys spend more time in a day futzing with their laptop and esc than I have ever spent in a year turning comms and re-brushing motors. Then again, I never fell for the "ya gotta re-turn/re-brush every heat" line. Hell, I rarely re-brush or re-turn in a half season. It is exceedingly rare that I remove a motor from my car. Being the brutally honest with myself person I am I'm very aware that the little boost in hp I'd realize ain't what's keeping me from beating Mitch and Randy. It's skill, and I can't buy any of that or tune it at my bench. Though as I saw when I got to race (practice) eight of ten days leading up to Christmas (instead of the eight race days per year we can schedule here) I definitely improve with additional track time. Go figure.

And LiPo...anybody who tells me a LiPo pack is going to be easier at the same time it re-introduces receiver packs (honest to god quote: "they aren't so bad") leaves me shaking my head. I guess I'll wait and see what these booster thingies do and how easy they are to incorporate. I'm just looking SO forward to adding yet another electronic doo-hickey to my car that I'm lying awake nights like it's Christmas Eve all over again. I can hardly wait for St. Novak to come down my chimney and servo tape another transistor-fied bit of goodness to my car.
Scott, I see the exact opposite at my local track.

95% of touring car is brushless and LiPo. Both stock and super stock.

When these guys ran brushed motors, cutting the comm every round was considered mandatory.

Touring car has seen an increase in turnout since the conversion to brushless/LiPo. Most site the lack of work necessary between rounds.

1/12 scale has seen a drop in turnout. According to the track owner it's because they can't run lipo. Again 90% of 1/12 scale is brushless (so far only stock)

Scott, I'm not saying you're wrong, but different places are experiencing different things.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:43 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by ~McSmooth~ View Post
A big, red warning flag should go up every time a manufacturer tells you that something is "good for the hobby".
I actually laughed out loud on that one.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:51 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
1/12 scale has seen a drop in turnout. According to the track owner it's because they can't run lipo. Again 90% of 1/12 scale is brushless (so far only stock)

Scott, I'm not saying you're wrong, but different places are experiencing different things.
Must be regional, I'd say within 1000 miles of us, in any direction, 1/12th scale is WAY up. I went back to it so I could get nearly double the track time on a race day. And it's a smidge less work than touring.

That said, I'm building a new touring car this weekend. I Haven't run one in so long I'm in the mood again. Sounds like fun again. And that's what it's about.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:54 AM   #165
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95% of touring car is brushless and LiPo. Both stock and super stock.
Hello...

Like I said, if you want to compete it is becoming clear that the brushless motor is clearly the victor, given equal weights.


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When these guys ran brushed motors, cutting the comm every round was considered mandatory.
I went ahead and italicized the operative word in your quote. 75% of what racers do is to soothe that beast raging between their ears. They THINK they need to do that crap. 90% of drivers I'VE seen would have seen better results had they snapped a pack in there and gotten a bit of extra practice. THAT'S what makes the difference. If you're consistently running 8 minutes (or 5 as the case may be) clean THEN the additional couple percent more power really makes a difference. Until then, you're fooling yourself.
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