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Old 12-30-2008, 06:53 AM   #136
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Just to throw this out there...

For this years carpet nats, the 1/12 weight limit should be 865 grams, and ban LiPo's from 1/12 scale. This is an easliy attainable weight and doesn't eliminate brushed stock motors.

But right after the Nats, all of us that call ourselves 1/12 scale racers will have to get together and completely rewrite the rules for 1/12 to allow for LiPo.

The first question we have to answer (and possibly warrants another thread) is do we want one cell (3.7v) or 2 cell (7.4v) LiPo's?
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:42 AM   #137
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Just to throw this out there...But right after the Nats, all of us that call ourselves 1/12 scale racers will have to get together and completely rewrite the rules for 1/12 to allow for LiPo...
The first question we have to answer (and possibly warrants another thread) is do we want one cell (3.7v) or 2 cell (7.4v) LiPo's?

Way too premature, this is an approach that should be put on the table about this time next year. 1 companies attempt at this to date should not provide all the data to attempt such a major reconstructing.

Yes it should be another thread, and hopefully not turn into a argument either way (yeah right) but I don't think any one mentioned anything positive about 7.4v in 1/12, hell the 4000 3.7 barely fits as is. I would need to build a trailer to pull the other 3.7 volts
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:51 AM   #138
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Way too premature, this is an approach that should be put on the table about this time next year. 1 companies attempt at this to date should not provide all the data to attempt such a major reconstructing.

Yes it should be another thread, and hopefully not turn into a argument either way (yeah right) but I don't think any one mentioned anything positive about 7.4v in 1/12, hell the 4000 3.7 barely fits as is. I would need to build a trailer to pull the other 3.7 volts
This time next year would be too late,as we would be looking at another national race. Not to mention the 1/12 season starts in October.

I would do trailer racing, but only if it were figure 8
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:16 AM   #139
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Way too premature, this is an approach that should be put on the table about this time next year. 1 companies attempt at this to date should not provide all the data to attempt such a major reconstructing.

Yes it should be another thread, and hopefully not turn into a argument either way (yeah right) but I don't think any one mentioned anything positive about 7.4v in 1/12, hell the 4000 3.7 barely fits as is. I would need to build a trailer to pull the other 3.7 volts
Like Jim, I think this time next year might be too long a wait, but I wouldn't mind seeing some data on 7.4v with maybe 21.5 just for a comparison point... but I'm not sure there will be a 7.4 hardcase pack that can fit any of the current chassis...
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:24 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Just to throw this out there...

For this years carpet nats, the 1/12 weight limit should be 865 grams, and ban LiPo's from 1/12 scale. This is an easliy attainable weight and doesn't eliminate brushed stock motors.
The 865 deviation sounds okay, but it would likely cause guys still running brushed to have to get brushless in a hurry if it's not decided soon enough... might be a hardship for some.

Why the need to ban LiPo's when they're not allowed under the 2009 rules? Doesn't that effectively mean they're already not legal?

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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
But right after the Nats, all of us that call ourselves 1/12 scale racers will have to get together and completely rewrite the rules for 1/12 to allow for LiPo.

The first question we have to answer (and possibly warrants another thread) is do we want one cell (3.7v) or 2 cell (7.4v) LiPo's?
It seems to be that 3.7 is the only thing being tested... I would like to see someone at least run 7.4 with a 21.5 for a comparison point, but the problem of finding a 7.4 hard case pack to fit a 1/12 chassis is not going to make it easy...
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:42 AM   #141
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So let me get this right some of you think that 7.4V should be considered in 12th scale ?

The capacity would be 2400 at most.
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:45 AM   #142
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Keeping the weight at 794 grams would give an advantage to brushed stock motors since a brushless car could never get down to that weight. So theoretically everyone who swithed to bl would have to go back to brushed. And 17.5 was chosen as the stock equivalent because it's supposed to be a little slower.

Stating that lipo is not legal in 1/12 simply avoids anyone asking.

Single cell was the first answer I believe because a 17.5 on 7.4 volts would be too fast. 21.5 would probably be better, but that means stock 1/12 has a different motor than 1/10 stock (touring car and off road).

The flip side is single cell seems to be better with a 13.5. Donny was saying 17.5 is too slow. So either way the 1/12 rules will have to be different than the other electric classes.
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:46 AM   #143
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I know that in oval racing, 7.4 lipo 21.5 and 4 cell NiMh 13.5 are very close in lap times. I'm not sure how well this info applies to 1/12 road though.
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:47 AM   #144
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So let me get this right some of you think that 7.4V should be considered in 12th scale ?

The capacity would be 2400 at most.
Well, tested anyway.
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:48 AM   #145
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Perhaps I'm wrong but I think 21.5 with 7.4v lipo is goping to be far too fast for an entry level class. It'll also be more expensive and more difficult to fit if it's of a decent capacity. I don't see much reason to consider it when single cell is working out better than expected...
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:05 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC View Post
So let me get this right some of you think that 7.4V should be considered in 12th scale ?

The capacity would be 2400 at most.
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Originally Posted by tfirsching View Post
I know that in oval racing, 7.4 lipo 21.5 and 4 cell NiMh 13.5 are very close in lap times. I'm not sure how well this info applies to 1/12 road though.
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Well, tested anyway.
I don't think 2400mah with a 21.5 motor should pose a runtime issue in a 1/12 car, I would like to see some actual run data to back that up tho...

I can also see a pretty big downside to it... for mod, runtime WILL be an issue... not so big a deal in and of itself, it could restore some sanity and strategy to mod, but it could also (and more likely) lead to another battery war where manufacturers make more and more fragile cells to cram more capacity into the 1/12 size battery cases... pretty soon it's the LiPO of the month club, followed quickly by the exploding LiPo of the month club... We don't need that. It could do to LiPO what it did to NIMH... it might be better to learn from the past instead of just repeating it.
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:05 AM   #147
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i read this whole thread and i would like to comment without pissin anyone off.........i see there are some guys posting here that race 12 scale many years and i do respect what i have read..

after an absence of a year or so i came back to race.. i feel i like to compete...i needed to go brushless.......nice switch.. fast in the corners little different driving style .. more time for chassis set up.....donnnie lia the owner of 360 hobby was testing the proto type 3.7 4000 mah lipo from smc...car was faster than stock 17.5 4 cell.........ok it was13.5 but with 3.7 volts...700 grams or so .....i put a car together t bar.....689 grams what i have found after 2 weekendscar wears very minimal........a softer set up is needed.....1 50$pack...race all day ........i made a suggestion of 700 grams minimum weight ........i am in no position other than giving my opinion on where this class goes........if any one is at 360 for the grand slam race i will let you try this car............................................... .................................................. .................................as for 7.4 lipo roland shao has a thread up future of 12 scale.. he has put micro brushless motor in 12scale with 7.4 2300 mah ..battery............560garms.....faster than 13.5 3.7 lipo........with alot of room to go faster...........
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:26 PM   #148
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Phil, there's nothing in your post that should piss anyone off. You've posted the results of your own testing.

If anything you've provided a valuable piece of information. You don't necessarily need a saddle pack for a t-plate car. That makes the manufacturer's job that much easier.

Roland has a good idea with the 2 cell lipo and micro motors, but the problem is the micro motors are not as uniform as the "540" size motors we currently use. So that would require a whole new set of rules.

Remember the purpose of this thread is to discuss the raising of the 1/12 weight limit to better suit the brushless motors, basically for this national event only. After this season we seriously have to discuss how to bring lipo into 1/12.
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:11 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Just to throw this out there...

For this years carpet nats, the 1/12 weight limit should be 865 grams, and ban LiPo's from 1/12 scale. This is an easliy attainable weight and doesn't eliminate brushed stock motors.

But right after the Nats, all of us that call ourselves 1/12 scale racers will have to get together and completely rewrite the rules for 1/12 to allow for LiPo.

The first question we have to answer (and possibly warrants another thread) is do we want one cell (3.7v) or 2 cell (7.4v) LiPo's?
Jim ..... why do we need to ban lipo in 1/12th at the Carpet Nats? Per the rules 1/12th is only 4-cell unless there's been a change that I don't know about. No one has requested a deviation to allow lipo at the carpet nats, and as I said ealier there's NO WAY I'd even consider such a request in 2009. The only things being considered is an increase in 1/12th min weight and a change to BL only at ROAR level 4 and 5 events.

I agree that much of this is permature, rewritting the 1/12th rules in '09 with approx 12 months of testing lipo in 1/12th is premature. There's only 1 mfr right now.
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:22 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Trips View Post
Like Jim, I think this time next year might be too long a wait, but I wouldn't mind seeing some data on 7.4v with maybe 21.5 just for a comparison point... but I'm not sure there will be a 7.4 hardcase pack that can fit any of the current chassis...
Trips ..... if you want an indication of what 1/12th would be like with 21.5bl and 7.4v lipo just look to the oval guys where 21.5/lipo is too fast for stock racing and they're dying for a "STOCK" speed class with BL and Lipo.
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