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Old 12-11-2008, 09:36 PM   #61
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This is scary stuff about to happen. In my opinion it is stupid and not needed. 1/12th is not for everyone but the people who have done it and understand it are pretty passionate about it. The bodies are really important from a downforce stand point. If you take downforce and stability away from the racer, he responds in ways to get it back. We will all be racing white rears or a new compound that will be introduced similar to a white. Cost goes up and for what.

I for one have never understood the need for scale replica format. I do believe we should look close to real race cars but we don't need to look exact. When the RC body manufacturers have introduced real looking cars to the public, instead of being supported by real car manufacturers they instead got threatened by them (royalties). We (RC'ers) should stand on our own needs, whatever they are. My .02$

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Old 12-11-2008, 10:10 PM   #62
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Spec tires in 1/12?? Depends on what 1/12 class....

13.5 WGT is slow enough and with WIDE enough tires to really get away with a lot tire wise. I've driven them and you can run most the track nearly wide open.
I thought my WGT car was 1/10th scale........... isn't yours? haha!

Asphalt spec might be a good idea for the Worlds.

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Old 12-11-2008, 10:17 PM   #63
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If you go to nearly any track, nearly everybody is running the same tires, why?

because they are the fastest.
That really depends on the track though...that may be true on high bite carpet tracks but at all the asphalt tracks I have ran at I typically see different tire setups for different chassis. Most of the cars within a certain chassis type run the same tires though. For example there is no way in the world I could get my old Darkside 1/12th to handle well with the same tires that I now run on my BMI car. The difference between a car with an in-line battery and a car with a cross wise battery are pretty huge in handling.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:27 PM   #64
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By the way, I am also a strong opponent to this because of the new 1/12 BODY rules that are coming. There is soon to be a 1/12 GBS spec for the bodies to try and make them look more realistic. With this, I think we are going to loose a lot of downforce and raise the CG of the bodies quite a bit (can you say traction roll!!!)..... Just to give you one dimension - Rear wing/side dam height max is 72mm... My 1/12 body from the Champs was around 76-77mm if I remember correctly..... Again, people need to look at the big picture (and know the details) before they can try to push for something that will potentially damage an otherwise pretty healthy class (especially in comparison to TC).....
I'm all for more scale looking bodies but lowering the wing height is going to do the opposite of that. Look at any of the LMP cars out there...they all run very high wings. If you scale that down it may come in at about the proposed height but that does not take in account that our bodies are allready higher then scale due to the wheels/tires being overly large for scale and the electronics components and batteries which restrict how low a body can actually get to the chassis. I would like to see the wing be a seperate component from the body which is more like the real cars. I remember the really nice and much more scale looking bodies we had on pan cars back in the early 90s and really miss that. Pan cars handled fine back then without having to go to extremely soft rear tires...they can do it again if done right.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:57 PM   #65
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Since we're on to bodies now...

Josh, if you have a concern about the proposed new body Rules, I hope you've gone back to EFRA and asked for a change. These things aren't something set in stone. If manufacturer's don't make shells to suit because the dimensions aren't good for sales, then the Rules are pretty much dead in the water. Why wouldn't EFRA listen to your view, especially with your high standing in the sport?

These posts about impending Armageddon if we change the body shell Rules can only make me smile. If you replace the words "bodyshell" with the words "4-cell", then I think I have heard all these arguments before. 4-cell worked out OK (people now say a 7.4v LiPo would kill this class) so what evidence is there that these shells will be so awful? Many full-size classes have changed Rules dramatically to reduce downforce, but lap records are still being broken.

The 12th GBS success depends solely on whether Manufacturer's make the shells, not whether we like it or not...
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:33 AM   #66
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Well that's just the thing isn't it...like in F1 they changed the down force to try and slow the cars down, but what happened? Less drag made them faster and now more dangerous in the turns. Then they did the same thing with tires and the same thing happened. Finally they figured out the only way to safely slow them down is to limit the power in some fashion.
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:24 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
Since we're on to bodies now...

Josh, if you have a concern about the proposed new body Rules, I hope you've gone back to EFRA and asked for a change. These things aren't something set in stone. If manufacturer's don't make shells to suit because the dimensions aren't good for sales, then the Rules are pretty much dead in the water. Why wouldn't EFRA listen to your view, especially with your high standing in the sport?

These posts about impending Armageddon if we change the body shell Rules can only make me smile. If you replace the words "bodyshell" with the words "4-cell", then I think I have heard all these arguments before. 4-cell worked out OK (people now say a 7.4v LiPo would kill this class) so what evidence is there that these shells will be so awful? Many full-size classes have changed Rules dramatically to reduce downforce, but lap records are still being broken.

The 12th GBS success depends solely on whether Manufacturer's make the shells, not whether we like it or not...
1/12 is making a comeback in the US in the last 2-3 years. There is no reason to upset the apple cart. Especially if the bodies make the cars harder to drive than they already are.
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:32 PM   #68
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Well that's just the thing isn't it...like in F1 they changed the down force to try and slow the cars down, but what happened? Less drag made them faster and now more dangerous in the turns. Then they did the same thing with tires and the same thing happened. Finally they figured out the only way to safely slow them down is to limit the power in some fashion.
Nascar and IRL figured this out some time ago, others just refuse to adopt similar standards in fear that it will limit something else. Strangely, the most limiting factor today is not equipment, but driver skill.

Funny thing though, driver Skill has always been a limiting factor given all other factors are even.
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:26 PM   #69
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The grass roots dudes running vintage trans-am and WGT have kind of set a bit of a standard. Take that times vintage and WGT body sales and there is a trend worth looking at.

If people seem to like real looking cars, then we should go that way. A 1/12th body is around $15 (that's not a budget breaker), If they make a change, there will likely be plenty of options to choose from, and one or two will filter to the top the very first weekend out.

I'm all for having my 1/12th car look like a little Corvette or something. Although nobody's done it yet that I'm aware of, it would sure be easier to get outside the industry people to get behind us if our stuff looked like THEIR stuff.

In fact, sign me up, I'll run one. We ran Bolink Pickup bodys on our 1/12th cars back in the day. It was FUN.

Notice the "F" word in that last sentence.
Not to get way off the subject but I found this body on fleebay, while not a production car its cool and I bought one just because I think it'll look different. Allthough I'm not sure if the car will handle very well with a body like this or not; ok back to the discussion at hand.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-12-Scale-Body-...1%7C240%3A1318
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:08 PM   #70
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That actually looks pretty good for a small time molder. I like how he has the wing element seperate from the rest of the body. I might just have to order me one of them. I'd be curious to see what a Parma or Protoform could do with the same idea.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:12 PM   #71
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Nascar and IRL figured this out some time ago, others just refuse to adopt similar standards in fear that it will limit something else. Strangely, the most limiting factor today is not equipment, but driver skill.

Funny thing though, driver Skill has always been a limiting factor given all other factors are even.
I don't really follow NASCAR or IRL so I may be wrong on this...but it looks like NASCAR made a move to increase downforce by switching from the old spoiler to a rear deck wing and a front end splitter.

And it look like F1 is finally figuring it out since they are further limiting engines for next season while going back to the old slick tires instead of the grooved tires.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:19 PM   #72
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Yep it should be fun, I'm thinking of doing a factory race team paint scheme but have'nt made the decision for sure. I received the shell yesterday and as you allude to for a custom made shell the quality is quite good; just a couple of minor blems on one and the other is clean.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:34 PM   #73
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guess some folks are still miffed by the tire game at the 1/12 worlds.

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Old 12-12-2008, 03:44 PM   #74
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If you go to nearly any track, nearly everybody is running the same tires, why?
Hmmm i disagree with that, last weekend at our track the tyre combo's and make veried quite alot.

e.g.

Corally gold/silver
Corally Pink/Silver Star
Jaco Megenta/megenta
CRC Pink/Megenta
CRC Grey/Purple
GRP Pink/megenta
Jaco Yellow/Double Pinks

Now the qualifying for the A Final was ended up with two guys on 32 laps and 8 on 31, and that was with the above combo's.

I've found that tyres are a great tunning aid, and that from track to track depends what tyres i run.

I would hate to have a spec tyre in 12th, so its a big no no from me.
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:17 PM   #75
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Screw SPEC,

Sorry SPEC racing is fun for a few guys that want to have some door pounding action in a parking lot. When it comes to big events and even club racing the tires should not be limited to one brand. The tires on the winning car should be just as important as the driver who won the event. Racing is not purely a drivers sport, it is a manufactures exhibition. If cost control is the objective of SPEC tires, then other cost control measures could be developed that give all manufactures a chance at selling tires.

Step One Limit the number of alloted in tires at an event. Is one pair of tires per heat or main event too strict?

Step Two Limit the tire selection per manufacture

Give every manufacture up to three compound choices for control tires that are allowed in a series or event. But Limit the compound choices to just two compounds for fronts or rears. The catch is that once a manufacture chooses three compounds, that will be the only allowed compound for the year from that manufacture. I borrow this idea from full scale racing were most tire selection is limited to Soft or Hard compound during a series. Racers can not mix manufacutres, must all be a single brand for tires.

So every tire company would have:
Compound A
Compound B
Compound C

Front tires Choices would be:
Compound A or Compound B

Rear Compound Choices would be:
Compound B or Compound C

Since the manufacture is mainly only focused on three tire compounds and not a dozen or more for 1:12 tires, the cost could start to decline by the increases volume of the three chosen foam compounds by foam suppliers. As you noticed, one compound is being used for both fronts and rears so the B compound prices could end up being cheaper per set because the volume of foam is greater than A or C.

What this ABC compound selection does is helps out the tracks and hobby stores with what to stock. Rather than stock One brand with a dozen compounds and have low inventory turn over. Hobby shops could instead stock two or three brands of just three compounds that they know will be sold. This would save hobby shops cost from discounting those "Lime" and "Amber" compounds that were hot for one week and junk the next. A smaller more active inventory will save hobby shops money and that savings can be passed on to the racers.

Without this going too far, I would like to see tire manufacture stop double selling tire compounds. If they offer a 'SPEC' or 'Cost Control' tire in a certain compound, why the heck are they also offering the same tire on the same rim in different package for $5 more? Just put the white foam band or the carbon rim on the tire and label the package as "Approved Tire" for the series and discount the tire a little bit compared to the other dozen compounds used in no-limit racing. This once again will reduce inventory for hobby shops and reduce the cost to racers.
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