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Old 12-05-2008, 07:52 PM   #46
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100% chassis sponsored drivers running stock
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:10 PM   #47
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I think about cutting my English class everyday cause it sucks... Oh wait...

I am all for Rubber only in TC. It brings the cost of racing down alot. I say no more foam. I was a die hard 1/12th elitest, now I run rubber 17.5 and spend half the money.
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:31 PM   #48
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just ban 12th scale
only you would say that
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Old 12-05-2008, 11:40 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ravex911 View Post
there appears to be an endless amount of variation. You'd think with new technology TC cars would have gained popularity. How did things get so out of control?
Equipment and mind boggling power are the best we've ever had. What hasn't changed is the ability of the "average" driver. Things didn't get out of control, technically we humans have not kept up and our abilities are not as up to the task "on average".

I call it the 5th grade music teacher syndrome. We keep giving students better and better instruments, yet the music still sounds like it's played by 5th graders. In other words, since the dawn of RC club racing and the hobby, there are only so many hours in a week, that the average guy can play, wrench, hit the track, etc. This means the skill level of the average guy is still just that. It's the skill level of the average guy. Yet technology has brought us speeds that could be up to 4 times faster.

This theory can easily be proven on the club level when dudes in the "C" complain that the guys in the "A" in stock are cheating. Simply let the dude in the "C" run the hottest motor he wants in stock... Guess what... he still didn't make the "A", and likely finished with less laps than he had with the slower motor.

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IMO, the single biggest problem with the big races is the entry limit per racer. The limit should be one entry per car type per person, max of two entries per person. Implementing this rule would drastically cut down on the length of big races. Also, big races could go to triple mains.
Limiting the classes eliminates track time. It's not a good value to attend big events, if track time is your goal. Limiting classes would make that even worse.

Triple A-mains only help the driver that gets mugged in qualifying. RARELY do you see somebody that qualified 10th win it. They generally sort out pertty close to qualifying. AND, triple A-mains are a PAIN IN THE A$$ for a driver. It isn't stressful enough to get your stuff national championship A-main ready the one time, let's do it 3 times. More batterys, more tires, more fuel, etc. I'd rather have longer mains than more of them.

Anything but open modified 1/12th should go to 12-15 minutes. We have the power and packs to do that. And we've done it club racing. Touring should be 8. Give the racer some value TRACK TIME.

Just another opinion.
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Old 12-06-2008, 06:59 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ravex911 View Post
You'd think with new technology TC cars would have gained popularity. How did things get so out of control?
I was talking with Bob Stellflue at the Carpet Nats this year about this same thing. He made an excellent point that TC was most popular when the most advanced car on the market was the TC3. Think about it. It has some chassis tuning options but not nearly as many as what's out there now, guys spent more time working on driving than spending hours on the setup board, and the GP3300 was in its prime. Since TC chassis have gone and gotten ultra complex to the point that someone needs a BA in engineering just to build a car, let alone set it up.

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I personally like running on rubber tires for sedan and wish that promoters would just choose one type of tire at particular events...
cleveland gets foam, vegas gets rubber tires just for example....
.
That's basically what we had until about 2-3 years ago when the Take-Off shortage started. Every major race was run on either CS-27's or RP-30's. They were decent tires that people had learned how to race with. Now there's like 6-8 different premount options out there, but things aren't all that bad. More than likely if you're running somewhere with a spec tire it'll either be a Jaco Blue, Jaco Green, or Much Moore Sweep. I actually don't mind having a couple options for a particular event. Gives me confidence that the race promoter will select the tire that gives the best combination of performance and durability.

For my 2-cents...

Stock and mod and that's it. Stock is too slow for the "Fast" guys to be interested in yet stock is competitive enough and entertaining enough for guys to learn the basics and have great racing.
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Old 12-06-2008, 08:18 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
Limiting the classes eliminates track time. It's not a good value to attend big events, if track time is your goal. Limiting classes would make that even worse.
I disagree: Limiting classes would make it worse for the guys currently entering in near the max limit of classes, but vastly better for the guys currently entering in a low number of classes. Because the number of minutes in a day stays the same and the number of people there presumably stays the same, everyone, on average, gets the same amount of track time.

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Triple A-mains only help the driver that gets mugged in qualifying. RARELY do you see somebody that qualified 10th win it. They generally sort out pertty close to qualifying. AND, triple A-mains are a PAIN IN THE A$$ for a driver. It isn't stressful enough to get your stuff national championship A-main ready the one time, let's do it 3 times. More batterys, more tires, more fuel, etc. I'd rather have longer mains than more of them.
I didn't say triple A-mains, I said triple mains. With fewer classes, achieving the same track time means more rounds. More rounds of qualifying is a waste, because it makes all the early rounds of qualifying pointless, and the position changes that occur in a fourth, fifth, and sixth round qualifier are tiny and will be wiped away by the obligatory crashfest at the start of the main. So, make those extra rounds into races which actually count for something, aka mains.


Another thought of the financial argument against this system: fewer classes means fewer trophies/plaques, which I imagine are a huge cost to the race host.

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Old 12-06-2008, 08:34 AM   #52
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I think they should go with 17.5 tc foam, 13.5 tc rubber, 10.5 tc mod, 12th 17.5, 12th 10.5, world GT, vintage trans am Thats 7 classes and something for everyone. Also these big races really need to cut a day off the schedule. There is no reason why you cant get a race done in 3 days instead of 4 or 5 my .02
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by adamge View Post
on average, gets the same amount of track time.
In "theory" everyone could get the same amount of track time. Seldom happens though. With less racers there is the tendency to be more lenient with racer minutes and the time between heats. I've been to races where it takes 6 hours to get through 18 heats. People sitting around, shooting the breeze, etc. And that's good, camaraderie is part of the hobby. Takes an hour to charge a pack, maybe 10 minutes lost to standing around and marshaling, per class. I'm guessing the most packs you can get away with on race day is around 12 total split between cars. Even with 2 chargers, you're committed to let's say 6-7 hours of continuous charging, and add in another hour of peaking. More often than not a race day is 6-10 hours or less. Take into account, setting ride height, working on tires, fixing broken stuff, lunch and dinner breaks, and actually working on the car.


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Originally Posted by adamge View Post
I didn't say triple A-mains, I said triple mains. With fewer classes, achieving the same track time means more rounds. More rounds of qualifying is a waste, because it makes all the early rounds of qualifying pointless, and the position changes that occur in a fourth, fifth, and sixth round qualifier are tiny and will be wiped away by the obligatory crashfest at the start of the main. So, make those extra rounds into races which actually count for something, aka mains.
The early rounds of qualifying are far from pointless, it's where you're learning the track and dialing in your setup. I'd rather have 6 rounds of qualifying and a single main than 3 rounds of qualifying and 3 mains.

Once you're sorted, you're sorted. Very seldom (with exception to perhaps the top 50 drivers in the world) does anybody, in any main, regardless of the crashing, finish 4 spots higher or lower than they qualified. You're average is your average.

Triple mains are a hassle, I've made a few (somehow), and it's expensive if you take it seriously, and very stressful.

as an example there is no reason to run a "C-main" three times. After all that work for 10 drivers the best that could be hoped for would be for the driver that finished 24th to end up 20th overall when it was done.

And on a club level, we race with guys that simply don't have the equipment necessary for that kind of action.

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fewer classes means fewer trophies/plaques, which I imagine are a huge cost to the race host.
And fewer people to pay for those plaques.

Let's look at mythical race event, the RCTECH nationals. it's for sedan stock and mod foam. That's it, nothing else, no other classes. 2 classes, easy to do. Number one, first thing, teams are less likely to send big name guys to an event where it's setup that way because all people do is bitch that the big name dudes are in the slightly slower classes. Well, if the big name dudes can't get any track time, why exactly would the factories send them? It's expensive to go.

Lot's of club guys like to attend the big shows to see the best racers in the world, in person. If the names don't attend, it takes some of the appeal away for the club guys. And were talking about a fair amount of money to fly to an event and take a week off of work, parts, food, entry fees, etc. I'm guessing it's about $2000 per person, not including time off from work.

Don't kid yourself, if there are 120 racers in touring mod, including the best of the best, Our man Joe club racer is going to be HARD pressed to finish any higher than say the "F" main.

Now how many times are you gonna lay out 2 grand to finish in the "F" main? Especially when you could have stayed home and bought 3 new cars, speedos and equipment with the same money instead. And THAT is why we have a lot of classes.

Mod touring at Cleveland this year, low racer turnout. I have an opinion. I think it's that the cars are so bloody fast, only a handful of people can even hold onto them anymore (for the record, this is also what killed 235mm pan car the first time). There are also the groups that don't want to accidentally break a pro's car during a racing incident. It's also no fun to be THAT far off the pace and worrying about getting punted or punting somebody. In a 10 car heat, if you are 1 second a lap off the pace of everybody else, you're gonna get passed about 28-30 times in 300 seconds. By the time you slow to let dudes go, it's closer to 50 times, or every 5-6 seconds. That's about every other corner. How much fun is that? And you've got dudes on the stand griping, the announcer trying to keep on top of it, etc. Very stressful.

People want to do what is fun. Cut the classes that are least populated and move on. Expand on the classes that work in your area. I give big props to the Canadian guys in the WCICS series. They find what works for them, regardless of who else is or "IS NOT" doing it, and they do it.
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Old 12-07-2008, 05:52 AM   #54
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Maybe the question should be "what classes do we stop adding to national events?" Do we really need a mini class or trans-am class at the national level?
I do like how the Novak race just "discouraged" the sponsored racers from entering 17.5. Sounds like a challenge to move up in class.
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post

Triple A-mains only help the driver that gets mugged in qualifying. RARELY do you see somebody that qualified 10th win it. They generally sort out pertty close to qualifying. AND, triple A-mains are a PAIN IN THE A$$ for a driver. It isn't stressful enough to get your stuff national championship A-main ready the one time, let's do it 3 times. More batterys, more tires, more fuel, etc. I'd rather have longer mains than more of them.

Anything but open modified 1/12th should go to 12-15 minutes. We have the power and packs to do that. And we've done it club racing. Touring should be 8. Give the racer some value TRACK TIME.

Just another opinion.
I like the triple A-main format for National title races. The races are only 5 minutes and if someone takes you out there is no time to make up ground. The triple A-main IMO gives all the drivers a fair shot at a good finish.
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:19 AM   #56
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Interesting.

At the local level here, last season there was stock, super stock rubber sedan. Stock, super stock foam sedan and a few stock 1/12ths.

This season all the stock rubber guys bumped up to super stock (13.5) and they dropped the 10.5 option for that class. Theres bearly enough guys to run any foam sedan class. Then stock 1/12 and 13.5 wgt.

I heard at cleveland that the biggest class was wgt. I cant believe that pan car is gonna take over as the number one class. Its what we started with ! I bet it has somthing to do with a 13.5 and Magenta tires.

Could see somthing like this at big races.
WGT:13.5/4 cell or 10.5/1cell/ Magenta
1/12:17.5/4 cell or 13.5/1 cell/ Double pink
Sedan:13.5/lipo/Spec rubber

No sponsorship allowed in these class's and you have to have won a major race in your class or have at least one sponsor to enter the pro class.

Pro class's.
I guess what ever class they can fill ??




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Old 12-07-2008, 03:28 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by stiltskin View Post
Maybe the question should be "what classes do we stop adding to national events?" Do we really need a mini class or trans-am class at the national level?
Technically, if it was the most "entered" class, then yes, we would need it. Dump the least entered class. Entry numbers dictate what classes events use.

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I heard at cleveland that the biggest class was wgt. I cant believe that pan car is gonna take over as the number one class. Its what we started with ! I bet it has somthing to do with a 13.5 and Magenta tires.
I think it just takes less time to do and get up to speed, less support gear, lower frustration level.


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No sponsorship allowed in these class's and you have to have won a major race in your class or have at least one sponsor to enter the pro class.
I've had fun debating this one before. My son, and a lot of the youngsters that race have never, not one time, paid for a car, a part, entry fees, travel expenses, hotel or food. Not once. The best of whatever he needs, for free. What is it that a professional sponsored driver gets?

"sponsored drivers" is a one size catch all phrase that people use to mask the weaknesses in their own driving.

I'm confident that if I swapped cars with Mike Blackstock, he would still win a major event (now with my car) and I'd be back in 40th with his "sponsored" car. Why is that? And for the record, no amount of free parts will change my 40th position. Why is that?

The problem is that some drivers are simply better than others, and there's really know way around it.

I don't have the answer to the class thing, but I can tell you, fewer classes means more pro's in YOUR favorite class. Check your ego at the door.
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Old 12-07-2008, 03:34 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by stiltskin View Post
Maybe the question should be "what classes do we stop adding to national events?" Do we really need a mini class or trans-am class at the national level?
Technically, if it was the most "entered" class, then yes, we would need it. Dump the least entered class. Entry numbers dictate what classes events use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PartTime View Post
I heard at cleveland that the biggest class was wgt. I cant believe that pan car is gonna take over as the number one class. Its what we started with ! I bet it has somthing to do with a 13.5 and Magenta tires.
I think it just takes less time to do and get up to speed, less support gear, lower frustration level.


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Originally Posted by PartTime View Post
No sponsorship allowed in these class's and you have to have won a major race in your class or have at least one sponsor to enter the pro class.
I've had fun debating this one before. My son, and a lot of the youngsters that race have never, not one time, paid for a car, a part, entry fees, travel expenses, hotel or food. Not once. The best of whatever he needs, for free. What is it that a professional sponsored driver gets?

"sponsored drivers" is a one size catch all phrase that people use to mask the weaknesses in their own driving.

I'm confident that if I swapped cars with Mike Blackstock, he would still win a major event (now with my car) and I'd be back in 40th with his "sponsored" car. Why is that? And for the record, no amount of free parts will change my 40th position. Why is that?

The problem is that some drivers are simply better than others, and there's really know way around it. You can't buy skill. Although the first guy to figure out how to do it will make a bundle. ...lol...

I don't have the answer to the class thing, but I can tell you, fewer classes means more pro's in YOUR favorite class. Check your ego at the door.
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Old 12-07-2008, 04:15 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
I think it just takes less time to do and get up to speed, less support gear, lower frustration level.

The problem is that some drivers are simply better than others, and there's really know way around it. You can't buy skill. Although the first guy to figure out how to do it will make a bundle. ...lol...
True, pan cars seem much easier to run than touring cars. It's like the racing has come full circle.Go back 10 yrs wasn't it touring cars replacing 1/10 pan cars cuz ppl thought they were faster?

As far as being able to buy skill, you should talk to Tommy Vu Tong! He's got it figured out!
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Old 12-07-2008, 04:38 PM   #60
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[QUOTE=TwoTone;5131667
When I raced TC I actually raced one of the old Volvo Station wagon bodies because I wanted to be different.[/QUOTE]

i used to run a mini van when i first started

as far as single a vs triple a,, 2007 single would have been great, 2008, oh man, am i glad it was triples. other then that i have no opinion
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