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Old 12-04-2008, 12:29 PM   #1
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Default ROAR... can we get a rule change?

This is probably not going to win me any friends, but I was wondering why ROAR still sticks to the 24 degree locked timing rule for stock and 19 turn brushed motors?

With brushless motors having variable timing available, wouldn't it be fair to let the brushed user rotate the endbell a little and find the best setting for their particular application?

As long as brushed and brushless are running together, it would seem only fair...

I'm running brushless in my touring car, but I still run brushed in my 1/12 scale. Call me old fashioned, but all those wires in a 1/12 scale are just to ugly to bear for me.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:33 PM   #2
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I would suggest if there are more like you who want such a change...you write up your proposal in a nice clear fashion, stating the specific changes you'd like to see, and how to implement them and then send the proposal to your regional director.

If just for club races, you don't need a ROAR rule to allow it, you just need to convience your track to make the variance in their local racing. If it catches on from there...it could grow to a larger market.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:37 PM   #3
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19T goes away next year so it would only be in the stock class. You will be stuck with the extra wires in Super Stock (13.5)
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Old 12-04-2008, 01:54 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Trips View Post
This is probably not going to win me any friends, but I was wondering why ROAR still sticks to the 24 degree locked timing rule for stock and 19 turn brushed motors?

With brushless motors having variable timing available, wouldn't it be fair to let the brushed user rotate the endbell a little and find the best setting for their particular application?

As long as brushed and brushless are running together, it would seem only fair...
Then why not ball-bearings too for that matter?
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:02 PM   #5
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Then why not ball-bearings too for that matter?
Why not indeed? Although I'm looking for parity, some may think that bearings would swing the balance in favor of brushed over brushless... I'd settle for just allowing timing changes, but I'll also ask about bearings.

We happen to have a regional this weekend, I'll take this up with our region 1 director and see if he thinks it might be a good idea.
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:27 PM   #6
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Why not indeed? Although I'm looking for parity, some may think that bearings would swing the balance in favor of brushed over brushless... I'd settle for just allowing timing changes, but I'll also ask about bearings.
i think we'd be more likely to see brushless motors becomming locked before going the other way with the 'old standby'. why did the b/l market adopt variable timing on all motors to begin with? (admittedly, i haven't been paying much attention to any of it).

i think running b/l right now is actually a tough task, because most r/c'ers are too lazy, or unaccustomed to a methodical approach, to test all the combinations (gearing vs. timing vs. esc settings).

it's a wierd thing to hear everyone still rejoicing about not having to cut motors anymore, when they now have an entire system of variables to figure out. add to that the lipo of the month program and various firmware upgrades, and it sure seems like more work to me. (barring running modified)

i guess this turned into more of a rant, but the idea made me feel like modernizing our horsepower over the last year has actually made racing much more complicated than it was (which a majority of racers were already complaining about). you might argue that it's quite a bit more expensive as well. (motors, esc's, lipo's and the general life cycles right now) ...
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:34 PM   #7
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getting racers and roar on board is only part of the battle. the hold over to the old style is also a manufacterer issue. i'm not sure the motor manufacterers are going to be wanting to change what they have been doing for years on a product that is near the end of it's life.

gl
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:34 PM   #8
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Interesting idea! At one time we had stock motors with as much as 44 degrees of timing! This was before openable stock motors-boy did they run hot. Your idea has merit. I've often thought of a reconfigured ROAR "stock" motor as having a hotter wind (ie 21 or 23 turn) and less timing-say 5-12 degrees. And ball bearings would be standard. Even "cut down" oilites are an anachronism. With less heat production our motors would last longer. And do ROAR rules still state that you can't use company A's arm in company B's can? What a bunch of BS! As long as they are tagged legal why can't they be interchanged? Many years ago I raced slots-we built motors with whatever ran best. Even in limited classes, there is no reason it can't be done in RC! Don
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:39 PM   #9
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Those same variables you mentioned for brushless existed with brushed motors also. I had a VFS-1 masami that required just as much tuning as a brushless speedo.

I run an LRP tc and I try to keep my settings simple....
I run the punch setting at 3 or 5 depending on track conditions and gear to temp. I've tried to advance the timing on the motor side and the temps just went up so I had to adjust the FDR and ended up with the same speed as the stock settings...lol
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:43 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by seaball View Post
it's a wierd thing to hear everyone still rejoicing about not having to cut motors anymore, when they now have an entire system of variables to figure out. add to that the lipo of the month program and various firmware upgrades, and it sure seems like more work to me. (barring running modified)

Really? you see people getting the LiPo of the month? You see people doing firmware updates on their ESC's all the time?

I surely donít see it. And compared to the folks who used to come to races with a box of new stock motors to mix and match the "hot one" then spend an afternoon aligning the heads, truing the com, reaming the bushings, and doing that after each heat... I think thereís no question brushless are less work. when I compare the price of a Brushless w/ ESC to the price of buying "hot" stock motors and all the associated BS tools for them, running brushed is more expensive in time and materials... and overall less fun.

You talk about modernizing the the old technology. Last time people did that it was talking about how to make carbureted engines more efficient, etc... so they worked in computers, vacuum assy's, and made carbs that were so complex they almost never worked right, were a maint headache, and stupid expensive. While the rest of the industry went on to use fuel injection...

I think anyone thinking Brushless arenít the future are really missing the big picture. R/C should be all about technology advancement, not technology life-support.

While there is always those who will do lipo of the month, and new ESC's that are .005% more efficient or 1/4 gram lighter... thatís most definitely the minority in the hobby, and at the highest levels. An easy way to do good without that is save the time you spend tuning your motor and more time tuning your driving and chassis.

just my .02$
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by seaball View Post
i think we'd be more likely to see brushless motors becomming locked before going the other way with the 'old standby'. why did the b/l market adopt variable timing on all motors to begin with? (admittedly, i haven't been paying much attention to any of it).

i think running b/l right now is actually a tough task, because most r/c'ers are too lazy, or unaccustomed to a methodical approach, to test all the combinations (gearing vs. timing vs. esc settings).

it's a wierd thing to hear everyone still rejoicing about not having to cut motors anymore, when they now have an entire system of variables to figure out. add to that the lipo of the month program and various firmware upgrades, and it sure seems like more work to me. (barring running modified)

i guess this turned into more of a rant, but the idea made me feel like modernizing our horsepower over the last year has actually made racing much more complicated than it was (which a majority of racers were already complaining about). you might argue that it's quite a bit more expensive as well. (motors, esc's, lipo's and the general life cycles right now) ...
I actually heard more people complain about the tedious work not the complexity. Complexity keeps it interesting, tedious work makes it monotonous. I like the challenge it brings. But for those that don't most have already gotten close and give people the answer. Once it is figured out for a motor/esc combo then it's not like you change it every round of racing.
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Old 12-04-2008, 03:01 PM   #12
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No rule change or adjustment can save old obsolete motor`s and battery`s....

A waste of time really....
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Old 12-04-2008, 03:36 PM   #13
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No rule change or adjustment can save old obsolete motor`s and battery`s....

A waste of time really....
I am not so sure. It would be interesting to see what a 129.00 brushed stock motor could do.
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:19 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by seaball View Post
i think we'd be more likely to see brushless motors becomming locked before going the other way with the 'old standby'.
I'd LOVE to see that, but how can you lock the timing on a brushless motor? The timing can be changed in the speed control, so even if a rule were passed to lock the timing on a brushless, how would you tech it at a race? Download the speed control's firmware and then decompile it and have some code wizard tell you it was legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis M. View Post
Those same variables you mentioned for brushless existed with brushed motors also. I had a VFS-1 masami that required just as much tuning as a brushless speedo.

I run an LRP tc and I try to keep my settings simple....
I run the punch setting at 3 or 5 depending on track conditions and gear to temp. I've tried to advance the timing on the motor side and the temps just went up so I had to adjust the FDR and ended up with the same speed as the stock settings...lol
All the settings in my VFS Pro speed control allow me to change the feel, but not the power at full on.

When I got my Tekini RS everyone at the track told me to run it in Sensored only mode and crank the motor's timing to full on the endbell. I spent a day playing with different settings and now run it in hybrid mode, timing at 100% ini the software, endbell timing backed off, and I'm going three tenths faster a lap and 39 degrees cooler than I could in sensor only mode.

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Really? you see people getting the LiPo of the month? You see people doing firmware updates on their ESC's all the time?

I surely donít see it. And compared to the folks who used to come to races with a box of new stock motors to mix and match the "hot one" then spend an afternoon aligning the heads, truing the com, reaming the bushings, and doing that after each heat... I think thereís no question brushless are less work. when I compare the price of a Brushless w/ ESC to the price of buying "hot" stock motors and all the associated BS tools for them, running brushed is more expensive in time and materials... and overall less fun.
I already see the LiPO of the month thing starting to happen... I've already seen threads here on RCTECH where people are suggesting that ROAR put a cap on "C" ratings to try and stem the tide. Good luck.

The speedo of the month wars are coming. Tekin's new firmware will be a LOT more than a minute upgrade in performance. Novak's new firmware is supposedly a significant according to some who have seen and run it at Cleveland.

"All the associated BS tools" for my brushed motors are a comm lathe I bought in 1992 with a diamond bit ($150) a brush hood alignment tool also from 1992 ($14) and a file ($3) That's $167 I had to spend ONCE and it's been working fine for seventeen years. I buy maybe two or three stock motors in a given year ($32 or so each) not a big investment in a year of racing. When you have to buy a new brushless speedo to keep up, it's going to get ugly. And it's coming, I'll bet a week's pay you'll see it this year.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
No rule change or adjustment can save old obsolete motor`s and battery`s....

A waste of time really....
Not looking to save the old technology, just looking to keep an even playing field while it's still legal. I run brushless in my touring car, but I still run brushed in my 1/12 scale. Sorry, but I'm not ready to throw away a bunch stuff that still works and is still legal. But I wouldn't mind beiung allowed to twist the endbell of my stock motor like the brushless guys can...

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I am not so sure. It would be interesting to see what a 129.00 brushed stock motor could do.
LOL... maybe the ball bearings wouldn't be such a good idear... But twisting the endbell wouldn't cost anyone a penny (except Trinity with their flat-sided cans... I don't suppose they'd like to see ROAR unlock the 24 degree rule anytime soon, and for good rea$on)
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:38 PM   #15
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All the settings in my VFS Pro speed control allow me to change the feel, but not the power at full on.

When I got my Tekini RS everyone at the track told me to run it in Sensored only mode and crank the motor's timing to full on the endbell. I spent a day playing with different settings and now run it in hybrid mode, timing at 100% ini the software, endbell timing backed off, and I'm going three tenths faster a lap and 39 degrees cooler than I could in sensor only mode.



Are you sure that the only variable was the speedo and motor settings? Did you end up finding the right gearing for the balance of temp and speed? as for the 3/10ths, most people will go 3/10ths faster if they spent the whole day putting laps in....
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