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Old 12-04-2008, 04:41 PM   #16
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I am not so sure. It would be interesting to see what a 129.00 brushed stock motor could do.
LOL! I'd like to see that.
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Old 12-04-2008, 05:06 PM   #17
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Are you sure that the only variable was the speedo and motor settings? Did you end up finding the right gearing for the balance of temp and speed? as for the 3/10ths, most people will go 3/10ths faster if they spent the whole day putting laps in....
I'm nothing if not methodical... the change was not the result of putting laps in all day. I'd already driven hundreds of laps on this layout. I even went back to sensored only mode to be sure, and couldn't get the same lap times as hybrid mode until I got the motor running 170 degrees. Backing off the gearing or timing just slowed me down. In hybrid mode I could do the same fast lap times and come off at 131 degrees. Each test run was off a freshly topped up LiPO pack and I ran 2 minutes each time. Three laps to get the tires warmed up, then hot laps for the rest of the two minutes. Looked at the best lap times and averages.
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Old 12-04-2008, 06:55 PM   #18
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People have been tweaking 24 degree stock motors for years! A locked endbell just made it more difficult to crank up the timing. You could get between 5 and 8 degrees of timing on a 24 degree motor before the comm lock snaps. I know it because I experimented with it when the 24 degree motors came out (I hated to have to throw a perfectly good Tweak Bar away).
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Old 12-04-2008, 07:29 PM   #19
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Why not indeed? Although I'm looking for parity, some may think that bearings would swing the balance in favor of brushed over brushless... I'd settle for just allowing timing changes, but I'll also ask about bearings.

We happen to have a regional this weekend, I'll take this up with our region 1 director and see if he thinks it might be a good idea.
I've been wondering about bearings myself for some time now...20 some odd years ago when the rules were originally written the cost difference between bushings and bearings would have greatly increased the cost of the motor...today the difference is so minor there is no reason to switch to bearings other then that is the way it has been done for so many years now.
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Old 12-04-2008, 07:30 PM   #20
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i think we'd be more likely to see brushless motors becomming locked before going the other way with the 'old standby'. why did the b/l market adopt variable timing on all motors to begin with? (admittedly, i haven't been paying much attention to any of it).

i think running b/l right now is actually a tough task, because most r/c'ers are too lazy, or unaccustomed to a methodical approach, to test all the combinations (gearing vs. timing vs. esc settings).

it's a wierd thing to hear everyone still rejoicing about not having to cut motors anymore, when they now have an entire system of variables to figure out. add to that the lipo of the month program and various firmware upgrades, and it sure seems like more work to me. (barring running modified)

i guess this turned into more of a rant, but the idea made me feel like modernizing our horsepower over the last year has actually made racing much more complicated than it was (which a majority of racers were already complaining about). you might argue that it's quite a bit more expensive as well. (motors, esc's, lipo's and the general life cycles right now) ...
Even that would be moot though as many BL ESCs have electronic timing adjustments.
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Old 12-04-2008, 07:36 PM   #21
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When I got my Tekini RS everyone at the track told me to run it in Sensored only mode and crank the motor's timing to full on the endbell. I spent a day playing with different settings and now run it in hybrid mode, timing at 100% ini the software, endbell timing backed off, and I'm going three tenths faster a lap and 39 degrees cooler than I could in sensor only mode.
I thought about trying that as well. Originally I ran mine in hybrid at 80% timing which was the reccomendation at the time. When people switched to sensored only mode I gave it a try and haven't gone back because of the brakes...in hybrid mode on my 1/12th pan car I pretty much had no brakes at all. Now in sensored I have the amount of brakes I want. Did you notice any loss in brakes when you went back to hybrid?
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:19 PM   #22
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We already have guys installing bearings in stockers here for club racing.Fine with me , The only real gain is the bushings dont wear out before the comm is trued down to far so it just means that they dont have to switch arms and cans around because the arm in a motor is still good , but the bushings are shot.so it saves them some $$ not having to buy new motors just for the fresh can and bushings.
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:47 PM   #23
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I just dont see many people buying those lipo of the month or all the fancy gauss meters and crap at local club races. The people who do are doing it because its a crutch to make them faster without them learning to be faster, or they are just that damn good that they can use that extra power and not put it in a wall. Which if that is the case they are in the upper 1- 5% of all R/C racers I'd say, and you shouldnt really care what they are doing... because you arent them.

For the other 95% of us... that micro second of extra power or firmware crap... really doesnt mean shit when you end up on your lid on lap 2 or pile it into the wall with your ultra fast car.

Brushed motors are very much on their way out... they are not coming back, its ancient and inefficient technology. Postponing the death is the only thing you are doing.

This thread sorta reminds me of the Trinity "OMG Brushless are scary" ad a few years ago FUD rocks.
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:18 AM   #24
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I thought about trying that as well. Originally I ran mine in hybrid at 80% timing which was the reccomendation at the time. When people switched to sensored only mode I gave it a try and haven't gone back because of the brakes...in hybrid mode on my 1/12th pan car I pretty much had no brakes at all. Now in sensored I have the amount of brakes I want. Did you notice any loss in brakes when you went back to hybrid?
I can't say I noticed a loss of braking in hybrid mode... Not that I'm using much brake at all... I run rubber tire 17.5 TC on carpet with the RS, and a oneway in front means I'm not braking much at all. When I do hit the brakes, the car stops pretty smartly. I don't have the brakes maxed out, and I could probably turn em down some to actually make them usable...

D
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:56 AM   #25
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Which if that is the case they are in the upper 1- 5% of all R/C racers I'd say, and you shouldnt really care what they are doing... because you arent them.
Actually...if you're referring to seaball...yeah, he is.
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Old 12-05-2008, 01:06 AM   #26
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Actually...if you're referring to seaball...yeah, he is.
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:34 AM   #27
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Actually...if you're referring to seaball...yeah, he is.

I was talking about the OP -'Trips'


and really if you are in that top 5% of the racers... you probably arent too concerned with the lipo of the month, or investing an amount equal to the GDP of a small country into a toy car.
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Old 12-24-2008, 03:01 PM   #28
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I am not so sure. It would be interesting to see what a 129.00 brushed stock motor could do.
Not to dig up an old thread, but, "E" and I talked about this a few times. Why didn't you guys give it a go? Millions of brushed speedo's out there... nobody pursuing it...
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Old 12-24-2008, 03:07 PM   #29
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Not to dig up an old thread, but, "E" and I talked about this a few times. Why didn't you guys give it a go? Millions of brushed speedo's out there... nobody pursuing it...
The main reason is that it could not be ROAR legal. Normally this should not make a difference because most tracks and races don't use ROAR rules except when it is convenient.

I think most tracks and racers wouldn't allow it and choose this ROAR rule to enforce.
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Old 12-24-2008, 03:18 PM   #30
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The main reason is that it could not be ROAR legal. Normally this should not make a difference because most tracks and races don't use ROAR rules except when it is convenient.

I think most tracks and racers wouldn't allow it and choose this ROAR rule to enforce.
Didn't stop Novak when it started with brushless did it?

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