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Old 12-03-2008, 10:15 AM   #31
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My biggest problem with this class is that when they came up with the rules they allowed 2 different motor and battery combos in. It should be one. I am not against lipo either. I do agree it is the future. I'm going to buy a few for the off road nats. And if they ever invent a proper 4.8 volt lipo for the 12th scale I will get one.
All I am saying is that the guys who came up with this class should have made up their minds on a motor battery combo. If they would have said 21.5 lipo out of the gate we wouldn't even know the difference.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:37 AM   #32
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This class evolved. At first guys who started the whole thing up were running 19t or mod motors and 4 cells. Then the Trackside guys and the Montana guys went to 27t and 4 cell. That was great, really nothing wrong with it.

17.5 was thrown into the mix as brushless swept every other class out there.

The 21.5 lipo option was offered to open up the class. Racers have been demanding to be able to run lipo in every class. Look at the 3.7 lipo discussions for 1/12...anyway 21.5/lipo has brought a ton of people into the class. It has much less hassle than 27t/4cell. That is the beauty for a lot of people.

There will be growing pains. Remember, this was a class at a few local tracks almost exactly a year ago. Now it's all over the country.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:44 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by joezjr View Post
My biggest problem with this class is that when they came up with the rules they allowed 2 different motor and battery combos in. It should be one.
Three, actually, and there was and is sound logic behind it. Basically, two that make it simple for stock TC guys to try out the class and be competitive with minimal expense, and one for those who decide they're in USVTA for the long haul.

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I am not against lipo either. I do agree it is the future. I'm going to buy a few for the off road nats. And if they ever invent a proper 4.8 volt lipo for the 12th scale I will get one.
There will never be a 4.8V lipo as it is not chemically possible. Lipos are 3.7V per cell, period.

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All I am saying is that the guys who came up with this class should have made up their minds on a motor battery combo. If they would have said 21.5 lipo out of the gate we wouldn't even know the difference.
And there would be no USVTA on the scale it exists today. Like I said above, the 27T and 17.5 combos make the class very accessible to a huge number of racers who own that stuff already. They're the "gateway drug".

Racing is racing. Everything doesn't have to be dead-nuts equal. If you guys are sticking with 4-cell, you will continue to see a big gap between seemingly identical cars as the big variable of battery maintenance is in play.

If you really wanted to try and make the cars as similar as possible you'd have done the opposite -- 21.5/lipo only with whatever FDR limit you choose. You're discouraging the technologies that reduce the fiddling, maintenance, and variability between cars and keeping around the "black magic" of battery conditioning and brushed motor maintenance that truly separates the experienced from the novices. With 21.5/lipo the newest kid at the track will have basically the same speed as the grizzled vets, and performance is down to setup and driving skill, which is what spec racing is all about.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:22 AM   #34
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I think the "Offense" here is not so much that there is a tweak in the rules, but that there appears to be a lot of effort toward establishing a separate brand of the VTA class. Thus underminding the efforts made by the USVTA.

There are lots of local clubs that make adjustments to the rules. Its even in the USVTA code that you can do that as a track admin.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:24 AM   #35
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This is the most redundant and backwards speaking thread that I have seen posted in a long time. What you are proposing is already allowed with in the USVTA Rules. This is a completely meaning less thread and didn’t need to be started as all its done is make all of you and me too now look like bickering fools. If you wanted to get it out there that this is how YOUR Local track is racing then fine that’s your local track. Don’t try to start an underground movement to undermine what the USVTA has done because the cars are too fast on your track.....The USVTA rules clearly state that you can make any changes necessary to keep the speeds the same…..PERIOD end of the problem. You do what you have to do at your track. Trying to start this new movement is pathetic. Its like someone coming along and starting a new ROAR and calling it MMRROAR and using its existing rules but saying that you have to run 5 cell instead of 6 cells even though ROAR already lets you do this. Do you see how insane this whole thread is???<----this is rhetorical by the way. Nothing you are proposing here is anything earth shattering….what you want is already in the USVTA Rules.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:40 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
This is the most redundant and backwards speaking thread that I have seen posted in a long time. What you are proposing is already allowed with in the USVTA Rules. This is a completely meaning less thread and didn’t need to be started as all its done is make all of you and me too now look like bickering fools. If you wanted to get it out there that this is how YOUR Local track is racing then fine that’s your local track. Don’t try to start an underground movement to undermine what the USVTA has done because the cars are too fast on your track.....The USVTA rules clearly state that you can make any changes necessary to keep the speeds the same…..PERIOD end of the problem. You do what you have to do at your track. Trying to start this new movement is pathetic. Its like someone coming along and starting a new ROAR and calling it MMRROAR and using its existing rules but saying that you have to run 5 cell instead of 6 cells even though ROAR already lets you do this. Do you see how insane this whole thread is???<----this is rhetorical by the way. Nothing you are proposing here is anything earth shattering….what you want is already in the USVTA Rules.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:46 AM   #37
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Nothing underground. and nothing to create a new class. This is what is working and is running and if sharing that with others helps them maintain racers and continue to grow the class that is awsome.

If it scares you that pretty silly. This is hugly complimentary of USVTA and true to us something we have been addressing for a while now that is hurting "some" club programs. So if by taking all the flack you can give and holding a standard of race equality we get some chatter in the right direction. maybe help some clubs, keep good close racing at human reaction pace that is great.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:53 AM   #38
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Nothing underground. and nothing to create a new class. This is what is working and is running and if sharing that with others helps them maintain racers and continue to grow the class that is awsome.

If it scares you that pretty silly. This is hugly complimentary of USVTA and true to us something we have been addressing for a while now that is hurting "some" club programs. So if by taking all the flack you can give and holding a standard of race equality we get some chatter in the right direction. maybe help some clubs, keep good close racing at human reaction pace that is great.
Then drop it. Work within the rules already existing. Get you local race director to equalize the speeds. Penalize sandbaggers. Anyone who races this class and has to cheat to win doesn't get it anyway.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:17 PM   #39
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Nothing underground. and nothing to create a new class. This is what is working and is running and if sharing that with others helps them maintain racers and continue to grow the class that is awsome.

.... This is hugly complimentary of USVTA and true to us something we have been addressing for a while now that is hurting "some" club programs.....
Bullshit plain and simple! Sorry I have to call you on this. If you weren't trying to start a new class and complimenting the current USVTA, then why The banners and T-shirts? As everyone has already said, everything you're doing is already in the rules.

So why not come on to the USVTA thread and simple say, " Hey guys this is what we're doing at our track"

No you've been planning this for a while- made obvious by having banners and t-shirts and stickers ready, again its an insult to the people that took the time to create it.
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:44 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
This is the most redundant and backwards speaking thread that I have seen posted in a long time. What you are proposing is already allowed with in the USVTA Rules. This is a completely meaning less thread and didn’t need to be started as all its done is make all of you and me too now look like bickering fools. If you wanted to get it out there that this is how YOUR Local track is racing then fine that’s your local track. Don’t try to start an underground movement to undermine what the USVTA has done because the cars are too fast on your track.....The USVTA rules clearly state that you can make any changes necessary to keep the speeds the same…..PERIOD end of the problem. You do what you have to do at your track. Trying to start this new movement is pathetic. Its like someone coming along and starting a new ROAR and calling it MMRROAR and using its existing rules but saying that you have to run 5 cell instead of 6 cells even though ROAR already lets you do this. Do you see how insane this whole thread is???<----this is rhetorical by the way. Nothing you are proposing here is anything earth shattering….what you want is already in the USVTA Rules.
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:47 PM   #41
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-1
-1 what? What exactly do you disagree with?

I haven't seen anyone on this international forum think this is a good idea except for a few guys from Minnesota who obviously are the ones behind it.
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Old 12-03-2008, 02:39 PM   #42
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I guess I am just confused....Who runs 27t motors and 4cells anyway only guys I know are just savin cash for a lipo and brushless.....Lets look at facts:

1. 1/12th-went to brushless lipo soon
2. 1/10th T/C brushless..50/50 lipo
3. Pro-10-brushless and brushed together at most tracks
not to mention its 21.5 w/ 27t
4. hell mini coopers run lipo
5. off-road lipo brushless

If you take these things into consideration the USVTA is way ahead of the curve for the most competitive SPEC racing...lipo/21.5..is the best way for any racer to go of course it is a higher inital cost but the prices on B/L speed controlls are dropping and companies are making 21.5 combos and we have the oval crowd and the USVTA for making this happen...

The only thing this thread will do is confuse new racers....Run your club they way it works for you but call it something else . You have no affiliation with the USVTA....
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Old 12-03-2008, 02:55 PM   #43
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We are mostly talking 17.5. And not allowing 21.5 and lipos. We just want to equalize the speed in the class. I have heard many racers all around say they are quitting usvta because how unfair 21.5 lipo is. This class is about tight racing. We tend to keep it that way.
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by joezjr View Post
We are mostly talking 17.5. And not allowing 21.5 and lipos. We just want to equalize the speed in the class. I have heard many racers all around say they are quitting usvta because how unfair 21.5 lipo is. This class is about tight racing. We tend to keep it that way.
That's just a really short-sighted view. RC racing in general, not just USVTA, is in transition right now with the advent of brushless motors and lipo batteries. Yes, there are growing pains, but the right thing to do is to work together to figure out how to best deal with them. By putting your blinders on and shutting out the 21.5/lipo combo you are putting a band-aid on your problem today at the expense of your entire program tomorrow. Where are you going to be in a couple years when nimh and brushed motors are basically obsolete?

Those behind USVTA have put, and continue to put, a tremendous amount of effort into making the class as effective as it can be. The difference is they look beyond the end of their nose when considering changes.
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:16 PM   #45
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We are mostly talking 17.5. And not allowing 21.5 and lipos. We just want to equalize the speed in the class. I have heard many racers all around say they are quitting usvta because how unfair 21.5 lipo is. This class is about tight racing. We tend to keep it that way.
Ok, it works for your track. We get that, but this "spec" is still inside the rules of the USVTA and your track's discretion. Trans Am is still growing at most venues, regardless of motor/battery choice. Please name a few venues where people quitting VTA is really an issue and causing an abandoned class. What do you do when everyone starts buying LiPos as the preferred battery? Why would I buy a 17.5 when looking for a brushless motor for this class? For the same price I get a spec 21.5 within the rules motor. Why would I ever buy another NiMH battery? So I can run for 10 minutes, discharge it and wait for it to cool down to charge it again? I can run a 3200 LiPo for 3 10 minute runs, top it off in the middle if I want. All I have to do is clean tires, sauce, let the motor cool, make some friends and go practice again.

All this nonsense for what?
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