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Old 12-02-2008, 08:11 AM   #16
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I've read all your post, but thought i'd pick up on these points.

The thing with stock and travelling around is that two tracks are never the same.

One week i've been at a larger, flowing track with no grip, the next i'm indoors on a small track that race foam.

I've been side by side with non sponsored racers and its come down to the last corner(s) after 5 minutes. I don't spend my life and a second mortgage on tyres, motors and cells either, as my wife and son come first, racing second.

I still use a brushed motor, where as i've seen a lot of newcomers getting a 13.5 in the car from the first wheel it's turned.

But, yes I know some sponsored racers will have a lot of equipment and put it all in the stock class, and that DOES look bad.

Personally, (all of this is said without sounding sour about it) I dont see the need to change my motor to suit others when I know im not always winning. Winning isn't everything for me, it's not the only reason anyone goes racing.

If people are out to judge sponsored drivers when they win a race in stock and not knowing how well they race in general, they don't really belong in the friendly spirit of racing we all as a community, enter into.

Club racing is fun, when you know where your limits are and where other peoples are not to get too heated up about what class they should be in.

Keep the topic going, i'll happily contribute to it as best as I can
Good points and I hear what you're saying, but all I'm suggesting is that I think I've been in your shoes and I'm not sure you've opened your eyes to everything and all sides of it.
"Traveling around" helps, no doubt, but at the same time being know as the el-supremo-stock-guru-fast-guy" leaves a bunch of guys grumbling every time you pull into the car park. Not saying it's right, just saying it happens. As I suggested, it used to happen to myself and only caught light of it when I talked to a track owner mentioning the "cold shoulder treatment" I perceived I'd gotten and wondering where it came from. And he said straight away to me, "it's because those boys are all competitive, UNTIL you show up. Doesn't make you wrong, but it does make them feel like they're backmarkers the weeks you show." So that week I slapped in a mod motor, motors I used to save for the big races, and suddenly I had a whole new group of friends again because I wasn't racing in stock.

You're right, plenty of new guys jump right into the 13.5 class. But that's been happening for as long as RC racing has been around, and they're the guys more obsessed with speed and under the misinpression that going faster via motor will bring them closer to the lead pack. But I'm talking about the guys in the stock class, that the majority migrate to or stay in because of the decreased cost of competing.

The idea is not "changing your motor to suit others," it all about perception. And my guess is that you're winning way more than the average guy showing up each week. It's about the perception of the new guy. Will your actions, and class choice, bring him back each week or give up too quickly because he gets tired of getting embarrassed.
Another way of looking at it is with your own son. When he gets ready he's going to join the stock class first, but after a short time he's not going to have much fun getting railed on and beat up by daddy each week and he won't grow any interest in your hobby but will instead reject it and you entirely.

I think you have this whole judging sponsored drivers turned around a bit. All I'm suggesting is that you spend some time looking at it through their eyes, or maybe spending a month running without EVERYTHING you get via your sponsors, and run as barebones basic as some of the most budget-minded and intro racers at your local club --- leave all your goodies at home, and come with a basic kit racer, crappy pack, kit motor, beat up shell, one set of tires, nothing extra, and see what it's like running midfield or closer to the back of the pack. Just so you can see what if feels like running a ghetto racer.
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:12 AM   #17
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I hadn't given a lot of thought to the intimidation factor, but reading some of the excellent posts here has made me think of it... while I pretty much want to run against the fastest people, even it means getting beat, I can see where someone new to racing would want to have a class to race against people of similar skill level.

Years ago, the LIMRA club ran a series every carpet season with three classes... Stock was for newcomers, after a racer won three A mains he had to bump to modified class at the end of that season. Modified was for the faster guys, then for sponsored drivers (and non-sponsored racers who relished the challenge) there was "Expert" class.

It seemed to work well, I don't recall many guys dropping out from frustration back then, and the pits were packed pretty much every weekend.

--off topic alert--
You don't see much mod racing at the club level, even at the big events mod class seems to be very small. I think it's a shame, I really miss mod racing. Back then making eight minutes with 1700mah nicads was no small feat... making eight minutes and going fast enough to win was an accomplishment.

Stock class racing with 4600 NIMH's or LiPO's seems to be a matter of driving as hard as you can from tone to tone... It seems to me like something has been lost here, and in my opinion, most folks don't even know what they're missing...
--rant mode over--
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:26 AM   #18
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Good points and I hear what you're saying, but all I'm suggesting is that I think I've been in your shoes and I'm not sure you've opened your eyes to everything and all sides of it.
"Traveling around" helps, no doubt, but at the same time being know as the el-supremo-stock-guru-fast-guy" leaves a bunch of guys grumbling every time you pull into the car park. Not saying it's right, just saying it happens. As I suggested, it used to happen to myself and only caught light of it when I talked to a track owner mentioning the "cold shoulder treatment" I perceived I'd gotten and wondering where it came from. And he said straight away to me, "it's because those boys are all competitive, UNTIL you show up. Doesn't make you wrong, but it does make them feel like they're backmarkers the weeks you show." So that week I slapped in a mod motor, motors I used to save for the big races, and suddenly I had a whole new group of friends again because I wasn't racing in stock.

You're right, plenty of new guys jump right into the 13.5 class. But that's been happening for as long as RC racing has been around, and they're the guys more obsessed with speed and under the misinpression that going faster via motor will bring them closer to the lead pack. But I'm talking about the guys in the stock class, that the majority migrate to or stay in because of the decreased cost of competing.

The idea is not "changing your motor to suit others," it all about perception. And my guess is that you're winning way more than the average guy showing up each week. It's about the perception of the new guy. Will your actions, and class choice, bring him back each week or give up too quickly because he gets tired of getting embarrassed.
Another way of looking at it is with your own son. When he gets ready he's going to join the stock class first, but after a short time he's not going to have much fun getting railed on and beat up by daddy each week and he won't grow any interest in your hobby but will instead reject it and you entirely.

I think you have this whole judging sponsored drivers turned around a bit. All I'm suggesting is that you spend some time looking at it through their eyes, or maybe spending a month running without EVERYTHING you get via your sponsors, and run as barebones basic as some of the most budget-minded and intro racers at your local club --- leave all your goodies at home, and come with a basic kit racer, crappy pack, kit motor, beat up shell, one set of tires, nothing extra, and see what it's like running midfield or closer to the back of the pack. Just so you can see what if feels like running a ghetto racer.
You also have some good points.

I wont even try to use this as an "excuse" or "reasoning" to my reply, but there are good and the not so good in any class, i've seen non sponsored, regular club racers in stock and winning a lot of races, who are no different to a sponsored guy winning in the stock class.

Sponsored guys can get a bad name to for constantly winning simply because they have the equipment- but what about the guys with deep pockets?

Through the years i've raced i've seen a lot, heard a lot and spoke a lot (probably too much of the latter sometimes, yes I admit it! ) but I am able to look at a situation from many angles, just like it doesnt matter what colour skin you have, what sex you are or how old you are, anyone is just as capable at racing.

All that matters is the thumbs/brain doing the racing and the equipment on the track. At 15 I didn't start racing in the hope of winning my first race any time soon, I knew I had a lot to learn, and some money would help, so I stuck around.

That said though, the times i've been in 19t and had some close racing ive enjoyed it, guess i'll have to dig the motors out and see if they can compete with a 10.5 sometime If not, i'll have to save up for brushless setup.
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:35 AM   #19
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Sponsored guys can get a bad name to for constantly winning simply because they have the equipment- but what about the guys with deep pockets?
Ah, you bring up a good point.
Years ago at one track I ran at we had a "box stock" class that was supposed to be for the new guys, but there were a couple that got tired of getting beat up on in one of the mod classes that decided to drop down to stock again.
Each week either one or the other of them won, all finished on the podium, and took the trophies home. Acting like bigshots because they were beating rookies each week, yet putting up their thousand dollar cars (deep pockets) against the new guys with truely box stock racers.
A few of us kept talking about it, and getting tired of their bragging, kept saying we could win the box class running a box car. So I took it to the extreme one week and fashioned a corruguted cardboard box shell for my full out racer, and entered. And won handlily.

The next week "box stock" was back to the guys that should have been running, and the "deep pocket" chaps had moved up to one of the mod classes where they should have been running.
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:37 AM   #20
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I know what you're saying with my son too, but by the time he starts getting the hang of it, or likes it I may even devote my time at the track to him instead in a year or so's time But I won't preach him with it.

If he's serious enough, i'll take him to more the big events that I very rarely took part in myself when I was younger and let him show me how it's done....

That has been my only r/c regret since seeing my own life move quickly So if I can give that chance to my son, I will. (The wife will be happy with the spare time too I suspect ).

I will take the time at any meeting to help the slower guys out, if they show the passion to beat me then that can only be a good thing, because they have the desire, probably just like Masami did, or David Spashett did etc when they were young and unheard of.

If this thread makes just one new guy go up to ask for help rather than quit r/c, i'm happy.
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:44 AM   #21
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I'm liking your story, nice!

I've had less experienced racers beat me before, so on the flip side how do they feel when they know they've beaten a sponsored racer? Do they get a buzz from it?

Think you know where i'm going here

Got to admit though, it doesnt happen as much as they would like it to though.

You could have a sponsored racer who doesnt race as well as a non sponsored racer, but has the knowledge to make the non sponsored guy even quicker. Product doesnt sell itself just because it wins races.

Everyone has their good and bad attributes, all bring different cards to the table....
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:19 AM   #22
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I hadn't given a lot of thought to the intimidation factor, but reading some of the excellent posts here has made me think of it... while I pretty much want to run against the fastest people, even it means getting beat, I can see where someone new to racing would want to have a class to race against people of similar skill level.

Years ago, the LIMRA club ran a series every carpet season with three classes... Stock was for newcomers, after a racer won three A mains he had to bump to modified class at the end of that season. Modified was for the faster guys, then for sponsored drivers (and non-sponsored racers who relished the challenge) there was "Expert" class.

It seemed to work well, I don't recall many guys dropping out from frustration back then, and the pits were packed pretty much every weekend.

--off topic alert--
You don't see much mod racing at the club level, even at the big events mod class seems to be very small. I think it's a shame, I really miss mod racing. Back then making eight minutes with 1700mah nicads was no small feat... making eight minutes and going fast enough to win was an accomplishment.

Stock class racing with 4600 NIMH's or LiPO's seems to be a matter of driving as hard as you can from tone to tone... It seems to me like something has been lost here, and in my opinion, most folks don't even know what they're missing...
--rant mode over--

I missed this earlier, so thought I would comment.

Your post reminded me of the other thing I remember from back in the day that a lot of places had two stock classes: "Box" Stock, which was self explanitory; and "Hot" Stock.

Box stock was for the new guys, crappy batteries, closed endbell motors, and many ran mechanical wiper-style speed controls. When they wanted to go faster, and dump some more money into their cars and modify them the got the forced bump up in classes. Many did it as their box stuff crapped out. Hot stock you could literally do anything other than using a mod motor; all the goodies and doodads you cared to put into it -- and many hotstock guys were competitive in the mod class if not enough hotstocks showed up to fill a field. A little slower down the straights, but usually ran the same number of laps as the mod class.

I guess what that brings me to is the sudden jump in the number of what they're now calling "spec classes." I'm all for them, but what I see them is being used as an excuse for the more experienced racers to get more track time, and the obligatory additional podium finishes, while promoting the idea that the classes themselves will attract new racers -- and I just, again, shake my head at the whole "intimidation" factor you mentioned before, and I'm sitting at tracks not seeing an increase in actual racers but marginally in car counts as these new classes dilute the fields.
I guess my whole point, as it was earlier, is that to increase participation in this hobby we have to have somewhere for the new guy, the inexperienced, and the lesser funded individuals to race -- and the rest of us leave them alone and stay out of their class(s). If they're good enough they'll be along soon enough, and if not they won't be forced to run against better drivers where their motivation to come back each week and get killed is nill to none.



--off topic alert-- Ah, the good old days -- where men were men, boys were boys, and getting 1200s (let alone 1700s) to last a whole heat and watching your competitors puking was part of the game. Luved it! Left the hobby for a few years and suddenly what had been such an issue was no longer even discussed, worried about, or even contemplated. --back on topic--
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Old 12-02-2008, 02:44 PM   #23
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Dr, we're so much on the same page here it's uncanny... I'd almost think we raced together 30 years ago, except we called our box stock class "Production" and the hot stock class was just "Stock." Couldn't even run ball beaings in production, you had to run the bushings that came in the kit. Remember when all the kits came with bushings? I seem to remember the production class died off around '81 or '82 around here...
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:18 PM   #24
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Trips: LOL, we just might have, and maybe many more here as well. I remember the box stock classes hanging around different places into the early 90s, but I do remember it being called "Production" a few places too. I just always thought it such a good place to get started, and that the "other named" stock classes allowed for room for a natural progress up the ranks into the mod classes that appropriately were dominated by the experienced racers. And I guess over the time I was gone all these other mod classes developed, and the other stock classes disappeared.
In recent years I've heard about "rookie" classes, that then I was told were turning into "sportsman" (so as to not demean the rookie drivers); but as I was saying before now I'm seeing call for all these "spec classes," which I feel there is nothing wrong with in concept, except for the fact that these new classes are being filled and dominated by the more exprienced drivers. I just don't feel it fruitful in bringing more people into the hobby, which is part of its premise, and I don't see it doing anything special in keeping these new classes and classification of vehicles around.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:57 PM   #25
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Again, I agree completely. I really believe there's a need for a class where the newcomer can enter and have a chance at racing for the win. I'm an instant gratification kind of guy, and if it weren't for the "production" class when I first went racing I'm not sure I'd have stuck with it long enough to get completely hooked...

Spec classes are great, something less spendy and more fun-oriented can't be a bad idea, but until there's a place for the brand new racer to run that's for the brand new racer, I don't see the sport getting the growth it might... A class where a driver gets bumped out instead of dominating forever.

I'm happy enough in the current class structure... However well I'm doing on a given day there'[s always someone running about the same speed... some of the best races I've had have been battling for third in the B... but it takes some time to develop that attitude... When I started racing, all I wanted to make the A, and once I did, all I wanted to win the A. The production class made it possible, and kept me coming back until there was no way I was going to quit.
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Old 12-02-2008, 06:42 PM   #26
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Well, that's why I'm saying there needs to be a place for the new guys and it seems these spec classes are the perfect thing -- since it's just like the old Production Class -- and all these guys that want to run these RTRs should just mod them up to handle the rigors of racing "stock" and leave the newbie class to the newbies.
But that's also the thing few people get when they're talking about the new guys, they're under the impression that they should be happy running whereever it is they finish. But facts are, that nobody takes up any form of racing looking to place last, or third in the B, they want to win. They all want to be Jeff Gordon or whoever. But as we all get racing, we get hooked and better know our place in the scheme of it all, but never -- not after that first race -- is anybody happy bring up the rear.
We need a place for these less than spectacular new guys.
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:44 PM   #27
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just wondering what the heck happened to get theDr suspended?? seems kinda strange...
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:23 PM   #28
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just wondering what the heck happened to get theDr suspended?? seems kinda strange...
I believe he is suspected for multiple accounts. He started out as RocketRob40... you can tell, they both have very similar styles. They both take the time to write long posts, and when I called him out on his tendency to write something and write his last ending thought in italic, he stopped doing it. The italic thing, both him and RocketRob40 did. RocketRob40 is also, RcketMtrsports, cracka and oxymoron... at least me and many others think so. I think he got banned for multiple accounts mostly.
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Old 12-03-2008, 02:03 AM   #29
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I think it's also fair to say that a carrot and stick approach to newcomers doesnt really work that well- in the context that they have no encouragement from other people except their friends to do well in their racing and progress through to a faster car.

My first race when I was 15 I was with 2 friends and going around a track made out of old rope, timing equipment was virtually unheard of then, only the bigger places had very basic scoring equipment.

Now we have good timing equipment, newcomers can look at their laptimes and at least find their feet with consistancy before trying to go faster.

Some kind of guide of do's and don'ts might be a useful thing for some newcomers, to keep them focused on how to excel.

Touring cars are starting to decline a bit around my way, so in a sense I don't feel bad about being in stock as it helps with making the numbers up in some cases. If I were racing against all newcomers then that wouldn't be right at all and i'd gladly either go in 19t, or back off and let the newcomers have a go at catch up and passing me, then back off and pass them again etc.

I get no kicks out of beating less experienced racers, or taking their trophies home
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