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Old 12-01-2008, 03:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Francis M. View Post
You get 400 people signing up but can't get more than 3-4 full heats in anyparticular class...
It's not really 400 people. More like 133 running three classes each. My first year at Cleveland in 1990, there were 360 poeple each running ONE class. 1/12 scale Stock or Mod was all that was offered and it sold out........quick!
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:11 PM   #32
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Good post Bryan...

IMHO, as many people have said we have two problems, way too many classes, and way too many big events.

The big event will take care of themselves, when the turnout is too low to host the event, it will go away. But the discussion of the overall National Point Champ would help to bring a little more importance and focus.

Understanding ROAR may not be the facilitator, but they have the best infrastructure in place to make a points system happen. Maybe trashing the regional system we have in place now ( ROAR ), and split into 4 or so regions, All the regional races pay points, and the larger races pay double points... or weighted somehow. I am sure we can come up with something along these lines to make it work.

It has been said that some people do nto like ROAR racing, well, tough shit, step up and quit whining, someone has to lead.

We also have too many classes and they are too fast. We have the FOAM tire mafia pushing TC into oblivion. 17.5 is too fast for beginnners. We need something closer to a 19.5, and 3 classes for the regional/national level. Remember , we all run what we want to at the local tracks....

Leave the VTA/ World GT and whatever classes to the club level, and specific promoters... just not a National thing...

Make the cars drivable, the competetion will be even more fierce...

Sportsman - 19.5 or 17.5 whichever...
Expert - Open Mod < actually would prefer 10.5 in this...
12th scale - 13.5 only

Maybe have a pro-level circuit for the big 6 races... 3 Rubber, 3 Foam - and get some real Prize money for just the Pros... do it Reedy format with the top 24 pros or something


Flaming will commence....
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:14 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Francis M. View Post
You are talking about guys that are spending 5 days travelling to race cars. So yes, You can cut the classes to the more popular ones and guys will just sign up to one of those instead of some obscure class specific to less than 20 people...

You will still end up with about the same attendance but people signing up for a different class as a 2nd option and IMO a better experience since these specific classes will be bigger....
If you run a 6 Race Championship series for example, maybe having a minimum of 4 races attended to qualify for national championship. Make 4 of 6 races, 2 carpet and 2 asphalt as a minimum, and the you can drop two to save some money? The Florida State Series has been running similar type program works out great. Could serve as a model to build from.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:18 PM   #34
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most of the club racers this is a hobby to them and they are really not as hard core as most of us, so travel is not an option. there fore club racing is the popular wat to go
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:28 PM   #35
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I think the major races should be linked in some form of series like others have stated. I think there should be less classes as well with an invite class at every race. Invite will keep the people coming to see the really fast guys but also make it so that us slower drivers have something to race for.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:55 PM   #36
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Here is my .02 worth having raced gas for the past two years and getting back into electric.

Gas you have sedan or 8th scale, pick one or run both it's your choice.

Brushless and lipo's have made it easier to get back into electric, but what amazed me was the number of classes!! Stock, Super Stock, Mod, 12th scale, VTA, and World GT... I was lost and looked at the turnout for each and you had 3 - 7 people per class. I know for our local track the TC was almost gone, but when they started running rubber tires, brushless motors, and lipo's it seemed to bring more people back into the sport and it requires fewer items to have to be purchased and or hauled to the track. Now a days I walk in and see cleaner pit tables because their are no tire truers, no solder irons, no comm lathes, no GFX chargers or power supply. I now see setup stations, AC/DC chargers and tire sauce.

New classes are fun and they seem to draw new faces, but it's really up to us the races to decide on what path we want to go down. For me I think we should stick with rubber tires for both carpet and asphalt and have the following classes:

Stock (Novice only, RTR type)
Super Stock (13.5, all skills, although for bigger races if you've won the A-main or placed in the top 5 I believe you should move to mod the following year)
Mod (anything goes)
12th scale Super Stock (Same rules apply as above)
12th scale Mod

I also believe with the economy the promotors really need to look at why we need or should have to take a week off of work to go race toy cars. Now don't get me wrong I enjoy it, but I think we really need to get back to 3 days of racing so that more people can attend. Maybe we should look at the total number of qualifiers that are run. Do we really need 6 qualifiers (I've needed them in the past..haha), but really in today's economy it would ease the expense for people by not having to buy as many tires, or as much fuel, etc...

Food for thought.....

Mark
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:01 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munrath View Post
Here is my .02 worth having raced gas for the past two years and getting back into electric.

Gas you have sedan or 8th scale, pick one or run both it's your choice.

Brushless and lipo's have made it easier to get back into electric, but what amazed me was the number of classes!! Stock, Super Stock, Mod, 12th scale, VTA, and World GT... I was lost and looked at the turnout for each and you had 3 - 7 people per class. I know for our local track the TC was almost gone, but when they started running rubber tires, brushless motors, and lipo's it seemed to bring more people back into the sport and it requires fewer items to have to be purchased and or hauled to the track. Now a days I walk in and see cleaner pit tables because their are no tire truers, no solder irons, no comm lathes, no GFX chargers or power supply. I now see setup stations, AC/DC chargers and tire sauce.

New classes are fun and they seem to draw new faces, but it's really up to us the races to decide on what path we want to go down. For me I think we should stick with rubber tires for both carpet and asphalt and have the following classes:

Stock (Novice only, RTR type)
Super Stock (13.5, all skills, although for bigger races if you've won the A-main or placed in the top 5 I believe you should move to mod the following year)
Mod (anything goes)
12th scale Super Stock (Same rules apply as above)
12th scale Mod

I also believe with the economy the promotors really need to look at why we need or should have to take a week off of work to go race toy cars. Now don't get me wrong I enjoy it, but I think we really need to get back to 3 days of racing so that more people can attend. Maybe we should look at the total number of qualifiers that are run. Do we really need 6 qualifiers (I've needed them in the past..haha), but really it would require people to purchase less tires, fuel, etc...

Food for thought.....

Mark

I've seen some entry forms and Sedan alone has 6 to 8 classes at some big races...lol

17.5 rubber/foam
13.5 rubber/foam
10.5 rubber/foam
MOD rubber/foam

I even understand why some mod drivers prefer foam but foam and 13.5
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:16 PM   #38
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Rick Hohwart made a good point on the topic of low US driver turnout at the IFMAR worlds a few weekends ago. There may seem like there are plenty of big races but in reality they all differ from each other somehow. What is lacking in "big races" is rubber on asphalt. The reedy race and the paved electric TC nats are the best known races for this. Others may exist but these 2 are the 2 biggest in the nation.

Really...come on. Those in San Antonio, texas know that the hobbytown track there would serve as a perfecttttt spot a future big race like the nats or something linked to ROAR. There are plenty of other tracks too. Foam/Rubber on carpet sounds great and all but wheres the realism? Real cars race on asphalt! I know these arent real cars so that point is kind of moot but whatever.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:22 PM   #39
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A few points being missed here. Yes, too many classes. That is because everybody thinks they belong in the "A". Back a few years ago, when there were only a few classes. If you were in the "H". You went back next year, and tried harder. Or worked during the year to be better at set up, and driving. Now, it's a for sale thread full of stuff, and off to buy something different. Maybe you belong in the "H".
Price. New car every year, new battery twice a year, it seems. Say you bought lipo's for Cleveland, by the time you go to the Bird's. There is a new cell out, so now you are back to buy more packs, again. Sixty dollar NIMH were bad enough, now it's $100 plus for lipo. And brushless motors you have to buy at each race. If you go to 5 races a year. That is 5 brushless motors you have to buy, at about $70 each. And the one you have already, is your favorite. That is $350 that you don't even want.
The big races are just getting priced out. Why spend the money, just to race a handfull of people in one of the 22 classes offered?
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:27 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munrath View Post
Here is my .02 worth having raced gas for the past two years and getting back into electric.

Gas you have sedan or 8th scale, pick one or run both it's your choice.

Brushless and lipo's have made it easier to get back into electric, but what amazed me was the number of classes!! Stock, Super Stock, Mod, 12th scale, VTA, and World GT... I was lost and looked at the turnout for each and you had 3 - 7 people per class. I know for our local track the TC was almost gone, but when they started running rubber tires, brushless motors, and lipo's it seemed to bring more people back into the sport and it requires fewer items to have to be purchased and or hauled to the track. Now a days I walk in and see cleaner pit tables because their are no tire truers, no solder irons, no comm lathes, no GFX chargers or power supply. I now see setup stations, AC/DC chargers and tire sauce.

New classes are fun and they seem to draw new faces, but it's really up to us the races to decide on what path we want to go down. For me I think we should stick with rubber tires for both carpet and asphalt and have the following classes:

Stock (Novice only, RTR type)
Super Stock (13.5, all skills, although for bigger races if you've won the A-main or placed in the top 5 I believe you should move to mod the following year)
Mod (anything goes)
12th scale Super Stock (Same rules apply as above)
12th scale Mod

I also believe with the economy the promotors really need to look at why we need or should have to take a week off of work to go race toy cars. Now don't get me wrong I enjoy it, but I think we really need to get back to 3 days of racing so that more people can attend. Maybe we should look at the total number of qualifiers that are run. Do we really need 6 qualifiers (I've needed them in the past..haha), but really in today's economy it would ease the expense for people by not having to buy as many tires, or as much fuel, etc...

Food for thought.....

Mark
No electric race I have been to has had 6 qualifiers..??..but anyway the reason I think gas is hard to compare to electric is that you can bump from the z main to the A, or if you're on a Christmas tree system, work up to the final. There's a lot more racing there.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:29 PM   #41
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stock rubber
super stock rubber
mod rubber


12th stock
world gt
mod 12th
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:29 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by J_P View Post
A few points being missed here. Yes, too many classes. That is because everybody thinks they belong in the "A". Back a few years ago, when there were only a few classes. If you were in the "H". You went back next year, and tried harder. Or worked during the year to be better at set up, and driving. Now, it's a for sale thread full of stuff, and off to buy something different. Maybe you belong in the "H".
Price. New car every year, new battery twice a year, it seems. Say you bought lipo's for Cleveland, by the time you go to the Bird's. There is a new cell out, so now you are back to buy more packs, again. Sixty dollar NIMH were bad enough, now it's $100 plus for lipo. And brushless motors you have to buy at each race. If you go to 5 races a year. That is 5 brushless motors you have to buy, at about $70 each. And the one you have already, is your favorite. That is $350 that you don't even want.
The big races are just getting priced out. Why spend the money, just to race a handfull of people in one of the 22 classes offered?
You also need to consider that a few years ago the cars were a lot slower. Not everybody can handle the speeds, even if they work hard.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:40 PM   #43
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when I started going to Cleveland (over 20 years ago), it was really the only big 'hotel' race that attracted people from all across the country and a few from europe and asia. It was great and I've been loving it ever since. In the glory days, ther were only two classes....1/12th stock and 1/12th modified. Stock had something like 200+ entrys and mod had more like 75 or more (if my memory serves me correctly). Those early Cleveland races pretty much established the winner as the best guy in the country for any given year. Then along came Snowbirds, and Vegas, and sedans, and masters, and rubber tires, and 19 turn motors, and VTA, and now World Gt. All of these have diluted the meaning of being the champion of the US Indoor Champs and also the meaning of just making it into the A main. It's my opinion that this dilution of the competition (too many classes and too many big travel races) has made all of the racing at all of the events less meaningful and thus perhaps less of a draw for the participants. While it's probably not reasonable to revert to just one big national "hotel" race per year, it might be worth considering a reduction of classes. Perhaps just stock 1/12th, modified 1/12th and stock plus mod of any single type of 10th car would be sufficient. That would be my suggestion for bringing back the glory of winning such a huge event.
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:01 PM   #44
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I say 17.5 and 10.5 in each class 12th and touring and maybe a 13.5 only for WGT

mod classes are way too thin and only the very top guys can hang on.

or 17.5 and 10.5 with a 10 seat invite for mod kinda like the reedy race idea...

winner of 10.5 bumps up next year.

I know a lot of guys that could keep up in 10.5 touring and 12th with the sponosored drivers, just not as well in mod.

I'd like to see a pan car only race i.e. like cleveland used to be no touring... like the novak race for touring cars...
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:14 PM   #45
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Robk - When I was referring to the 6 qualifiers I was referring to gas. My point was around the economy and reducing the number of qualifiers would help reduce the amount of money an individual would have to shell out because it could reduce the number of days having to travel and reduce the amount of fuel, hotel, tires, etc... that one would have to purchase and or spend.

I'm hoping that the track owers and promotors review this thread as 2009 could be a tough year for the racer and track owners with today's economy. I know I did a lot of traveling this year, but next year I'm going to pick my favorites and will have to reduce my travel.

vafactor - I remember those days as well. If you placed in the A-main you accomplished something and if you didn't you wanted to go back next year and try again. The nice thing about the IIC and Snowbirds is not only the location, but the race promotors. Take the Capital Classic for instance, Chris runs a great program and the race promotes itself, because everyone has a great time, it's not expensive (entry fee) and you're going to be racing the best of the best when it comes to gas. I believe the same feeling exists for the IIC, Snowbirds, and the Reedy Race as they attract talent from all over the world.

My 2 cents

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