LIPO rating system. Time for xtreme rc to do a lipo shoot out.
01-17-2009, 03:43 PM
#106
It would not be hard. You test them with the plugs they come with, if one comes with a tamiya connector and it fails to perform so be it. If one dominates with deans so be it. Fact of the matter is there are claims being made that are being proven to be false...
The test could be as simple as 30 packs getting hit with a 6amp charge 35amp dump and post the results, but i figure if a magazine is going to do this they may want to add more "meat" to the story.
It amazes me with the huge amount of bench racers we have on this forum that this topic has not taken off. Probably the number one item that makes us go fast in racing and barely a response for such a very important shootout..... Wouldn't it be cool to find out that a 30$ lipo can really hang with a 140$ lipo? We can Bench race all we want but until a real shoot out or test gets done all we got is advertised claims......
BUMP! BUMP!
The test could be as simple as 30 packs getting hit with a 6amp charge 35amp dump and post the results, but i figure if a magazine is going to do this they may want to add more "meat" to the story.
It amazes me with the huge amount of bench racers we have on this forum that this topic has not taken off. Probably the number one item that makes us go fast in racing and barely a response for such a very important shootout..... Wouldn't it be cool to find out that a 30$ lipo can really hang with a 140$ lipo? We can Bench race all we want but until a real shoot out or test gets done all we got is advertised claims......
BUMP! BUMP!
I like that idea, test "as is" and it sure makes it easy. One can pull 30 amps from the stock connection while picking the voltage from the same source very easily.
It would be very cool is a $30 dollar battery was close to a $140 battery. Neat if a $50 battery happened to perform like a $100 battery.
How about a constant current of 30 amps and 40 amps down to whatever cut-off voltage is desired (6 volts perhaps)
01-17-2009, 07:24 PM
#107
IMHO - Part of the problem might be...NOT EVERYBODY is looking to "Go Fast" in racing...just faster than the other guy. It's a relative idea!
So with that idea in mind...if a group of racers (just regular old NON Traveling...stay at home sportsman level common NON Sponsored Racers) all choose to use a $30.00 LIPO they can have some great racing, and they don't even worry or think about the "C" Rating being WRONG or BOGUS or none of those issues.
All they know is:
RACING is Easy w/ LIPOS
RACING isn't about having "The Best" or "Highest" number on your battery pack
RACING is about beating the other guy, Not out $pending him.
RACING is FUN again
RACING isn't their LIFE
They Charge, Run, Recharge, Run, Recharge, Run and have a good day of FUN with their friends...and get that 'THRILL' of competition.
....there's a reason why cars like the "LOSI RTR" cars have been very popular with a lot of OLD TIME R/C'ers too. CHEAP, EASY and EQUAL! w/o all the B.S. of worrying about His sticker numbers being better than the next guys.
For the UPPER end racer, the "SHOOTOUT" testing isn't needed. They don't usually read the magazines. THEY are already pretty much going to know how different stuff performs from their own or from their SPONSORS testing. And, if they are 100% sponsored...then they'll just run what their TOLD anyway.
So with that idea in mind...if a group of racers (just regular old NON Traveling...stay at home sportsman level common NON Sponsored Racers) all choose to use a $30.00 LIPO they can have some great racing, and they don't even worry or think about the "C" Rating being WRONG or BOGUS or none of those issues.
All they know is:
RACING is Easy w/ LIPOS
RACING isn't about having "The Best" or "Highest" number on your battery pack
RACING is about beating the other guy, Not out $pending him.
RACING is FUN again
RACING isn't their LIFE
They Charge, Run, Recharge, Run, Recharge, Run and have a good day of FUN with their friends...and get that 'THRILL' of competition.
....there's a reason why cars like the "LOSI RTR" cars have been very popular with a lot of OLD TIME R/C'ers too. CHEAP, EASY and EQUAL! w/o all the B.S. of worrying about His sticker numbers being better than the next guys.
For the UPPER end racer, the "SHOOTOUT" testing isn't needed. They don't usually read the magazines. THEY are already pretty much going to know how different stuff performs from their own or from their SPONSORS testing. And, if they are 100% sponsored...then they'll just run what their TOLD anyway.
I hear what your saying, so maybe i should qualify who would be intrested in this artical:
RACERS
Who would not be intrested?
Bashers? but dont they want to go fast? Or faster then there budy runnign the 30$lipo????
Spec racers?
????
Im all about spec racing. but the reality is at least at my club and im sure many others, that most dont want to race spec, and leave it to new racers. Sure im speaking as a CLUB RACER... and we could all make it easy on our selves if we all agreed to run the same motor, the same battery the same tires and the same chassis...... But just like some like pink bodies and others white. Most wont agree to race within such tight parameters......
To me the shoot out is going to give real hard numbers on the packs out there. I specified ROAR packs because thats what most clubs allow, wehter or not they are roar clubs. As a racer and a consumer i would find it a very intresting read. A battery shoot out would intrest me just as much as when xtreme did that fairly good belt car shoot out and shaft car shoot out.... I mean we could pick appart those test all day long, there where issues through out the tests that i felt affected the results(ie oneways in some cars but not others) bottom line it made for good reading, and well xray sold more cars!
Still i find my self alone here on this one, and really on this forum im surpriced. Maybe i should fire this topic up with the 10year olds over at RC universe! LOL
01-17-2009, 11:53 PM
#108
I hear what your saying, so maybe i should qualify who would be intrested in this artical:
RACERS
Who would not be intrested?
Bashers? but dont they want to go fast? Or faster then there budy runnign the 30$lipo????
Spec racers?
????
Im all about spec racing. but the reality is at least at my club and im sure many others, that most dont want to race spec, and leave it to new racers. Sure im speaking as a CLUB RACER... and we could all make it easy on our selves if we all agreed to run the same motor, the same battery the same tires and the same chassis...... But just like some like pink bodies and others white. Most wont agree to race within such tight parameters......
To me the shoot out is going to give real hard numbers on the packs out there. I specified ROAR packs because thats what most clubs allow, wehter or not they are roar clubs. As a racer and a consumer i would find it a very intresting read. A battery shoot out would intrest me just as much as when xtreme did that fairly good belt car shoot out and shaft car shoot out.... I mean we could pick appart those test all day long, there where issues through out the tests that i felt affected the results(ie oneways in some cars but not others) bottom line it made for good reading, and well xray sold more cars!
Still i find my self alone here on this one, and really on this forum im surpriced. Maybe i should fire this topic up with the 10year olds over at RC universe! LOL
RACERS
Who would not be intrested?
Bashers? but dont they want to go fast? Or faster then there budy runnign the 30$lipo????
Spec racers?
????
Im all about spec racing. but the reality is at least at my club and im sure many others, that most dont want to race spec, and leave it to new racers. Sure im speaking as a CLUB RACER... and we could all make it easy on our selves if we all agreed to run the same motor, the same battery the same tires and the same chassis...... But just like some like pink bodies and others white. Most wont agree to race within such tight parameters......
To me the shoot out is going to give real hard numbers on the packs out there. I specified ROAR packs because thats what most clubs allow, wehter or not they are roar clubs. As a racer and a consumer i would find it a very intresting read. A battery shoot out would intrest me just as much as when xtreme did that fairly good belt car shoot out and shaft car shoot out.... I mean we could pick appart those test all day long, there where issues through out the tests that i felt affected the results(ie oneways in some cars but not others) bottom line it made for good reading, and well xray sold more cars!
Still i find my self alone here on this one, and really on this forum im surpriced. Maybe i should fire this topic up with the 10year olds over at RC universe! LOL
Hey i run those "$30 lipos." The YR 3200 works great and yes, im a club racer but i do better with those than i did with NIMHs and they hold up in mod as well (charlie barnes runs YR packs, i suggested them to him). If i saw the YR packs in the shootout, regardless of legality, id buy the magazine immediately to see how it stacks up against "the big boys."
as it stands, ill read it while im looking for paint at the hobbyshop then put it back. Value or Price/Performance ratio goes way farther than any performance gains, especially when the gains are minimal or not too significant.
01-18-2009, 12:07 AM
#109
dont be too disheartened about what you see as a lack of interest..
i am willing to bet that everyone who has seen this thread would be very interested themselves, but most will be unable to offer technical input to the discussion about what they would like to see or how they should be tested etc.. dont forget, the majority of the people who'll get benefit from this will be those with limited knowledge
to the few that are able to provide either knowledge, equipment or discussion the results may only just be clarification of the their own tests and experiences.. and probably as a result arent that interested in seeing this done (although would prob still very much like to see the results) because they already know what the tests will show..
a magazine writeup of the technical aspects of lipos would be fantastic and i bet they'd sell a hell of a lot more copies of that issue too..
</2cents>
i am willing to bet that everyone who has seen this thread would be very interested themselves, but most will be unable to offer technical input to the discussion about what they would like to see or how they should be tested etc.. dont forget, the majority of the people who'll get benefit from this will be those with limited knowledge
to the few that are able to provide either knowledge, equipment or discussion the results may only just be clarification of the their own tests and experiences.. and probably as a result arent that interested in seeing this done (although would prob still very much like to see the results) because they already know what the tests will show..
a magazine writeup of the technical aspects of lipos would be fantastic and i bet they'd sell a hell of a lot more copies of that issue too..
</2cents>
01-18-2009, 07:07 AM
#110
With some 20-40 roar legal lipos not many common folks can test on there own which are the best. I just think it would be kool to see all packs show up to one test machine for a battery race! 
I suppose the internet may have also killed the hard copy magazine business as well. Most racers go to the internet for there news,learning or info... Magazines are usually 2-3 months behind the internet.
Maybe if we worried less about how the test would be done and just post whether or not this type of story would interest you is all we need. There are a few section i skip by in magazines... This test would not be one of them..
Think im starting to beat a dead horse here now
I suppose the internet may have also killed the hard copy magazine business as well. Most racers go to the internet for there news,learning or info... Magazines are usually 2-3 months behind the internet.
Maybe if we worried less about how the test would be done and just post whether or not this type of story would interest you is all we need. There are a few section i skip by in magazines... This test would not be one of them..
Think im starting to beat a dead horse here now
01-18-2009, 07:16 AM
#111
you are probably right.. this seems to have gotten bogged down in the methods when all that can be decided later
might be time to write a nice cover letter and attach some suitable reference material and send it off to a magazine and see if they bite?
might be time to write a nice cover letter and attach some suitable reference material and send it off to a magazine and see if they bite?
01-18-2009, 08:01 AM
#112
How about posting the graphs right here on this thread (or a new one) 
01-18-2009, 01:04 PM
#113
Were very fortunate to have a great partnership with our Lipo manufacturer so I can ask them many questions and understand what makes a for a better Lipo.
So far I know that the materials used and the C rate will have an impact on cycle life. Our 24C packs use 60% Japanese matrials and 40% Chinese. This allows us to keep the price low on these packs. Our 25C , 28C and 40C+ packs use 80% Japanese and 20% Chinese materials. This makes the price higher but also means the packs will have maximum cycle life.
So when buying a Lipo for racing there should be 2 things to consider. One is performance and the other is cycle life.
Our manufacturer has done some cycle life testing for us and it consists of 100 consecutive cycles at 20C discharge and you then calculate the capacity drop in percentage.
Our new 40C+ cell stayed at 90% after 100 cycles. We tested a competitors cell and it was at 74%.
Here is what I would reccomend for a good test that would give the comsumers/racers the info they need to better help them choose a Lipo.
1 - C rate and capacity test to see if what the manufacturer claims is true.
2 - GFX cycle info to show the numbers and graph at 35 amps.
3 - Cycle life test to show how the packs hold up.
If a magazine wants to do these tests and need help I would gladly help them.
So far I know that the materials used and the C rate will have an impact on cycle life. Our 24C packs use 60% Japanese matrials and 40% Chinese. This allows us to keep the price low on these packs. Our 25C , 28C and 40C+ packs use 80% Japanese and 20% Chinese materials. This makes the price higher but also means the packs will have maximum cycle life.
So when buying a Lipo for racing there should be 2 things to consider. One is performance and the other is cycle life.
Our manufacturer has done some cycle life testing for us and it consists of 100 consecutive cycles at 20C discharge and you then calculate the capacity drop in percentage.
Our new 40C+ cell stayed at 90% after 100 cycles. We tested a competitors cell and it was at 74%.
Here is what I would reccomend for a good test that would give the comsumers/racers the info they need to better help them choose a Lipo.
1 - C rate and capacity test to see if what the manufacturer claims is true.
2 - GFX cycle info to show the numbers and graph at 35 amps.
3 - Cycle life test to show how the packs hold up.
If a magazine wants to do these tests and need help I would gladly help them.
01-18-2009, 01:22 PM
#114
Do you think that Viewing only test 2 (along with temp graph or max) on a number of packs would probably be a good predicion of test 3?
Do you think that Viewing test 1 would be an even better prediction of test 3?
I'd sure be up for test 2 , but may have to purchase more equipment for test 1. 100 cycle tests would not be fun at all.
Do you think that Viewing test 1 would be an even better prediction of test 3?
I'd sure be up for test 2 , but may have to purchase more equipment for test 1. 100 cycle tests would not be fun at all.
01-18-2009, 01:47 PM
#115
The cycle life test if very hard to do as our supplier does it consecutively using an expensive charger/discharger system.
C rate will have an impact on the cycle life but materials used and how they are used will have the biggest impact.
Below are screenshots of the cycle results on the cycle life test. The equipment encountered an issue and needed to be restarted after a 10 minute delay. So there was 40 cycles done in a row then 67 more cycles done after the the issue.
This is using a 40C+ as you can see cycle one the pack had 4840mAh and on cycle 66 which is actually cycle 106 the capacity is 4354 so this means it retained 89.9% of it's capacity after 106 consecutive cycles.
C rate will have an impact on the cycle life but materials used and how they are used will have the biggest impact.
Below are screenshots of the cycle results on the cycle life test. The equipment encountered an issue and needed to be restarted after a 10 minute delay. So there was 40 cycles done in a row then 67 more cycles done after the the issue.
This is using a 40C+ as you can see cycle one the pack had 4840mAh and on cycle 66 which is actually cycle 106 the capacity is 4354 so this means it retained 89.9% of it's capacity after 106 consecutive cycles.
01-18-2009, 02:16 PM
#116
I would consider that excellent , unheard of at 40C (by me anyways)
Thanks for posting.
Thanks for posting.
01-28-2009, 03:12 PM
#119
Dont lose heart Joel!
I would be very interested in this test
As mentioned above, most of us dont have the technical knowledge to propose how the test should be carried out but are non the less very interested in the result.
Derek...............
I would buy that issue..................
Danny............... if doing a discharge at 35a test would it be easy to publish IR as well as Vav etc? This is a number most racers understand and IMO just about the most important parameter when choosing batterys ,as it directly effects Vav during discharge. I guess with Lipo this goes hand in hand with C rate anyways...
Am I right?? lol
I would be very interested in this test
As mentioned above, most of us dont have the technical knowledge to propose how the test should be carried out but are non the less very interested in the result.
Derek...............
I would buy that issue..................Danny............... if doing a discharge at 35a test would it be easy to publish IR as well as Vav etc? This is a number most racers understand and IMO just about the most important parameter when choosing batterys ,as it directly effects Vav during discharge. I guess with Lipo this goes hand in hand with C rate anyways...
Am I right?? lol
01-29-2009, 04:45 AM
#120
Perhaps we could just get a show of hands of who would be intrested in such a shootout in print in xtreme rc....
We can argue the results and testing methodes after the shootout gets published.
Instead arguing how to do the test, maybe we could all agree we would like to see some sort or test aka shootout....
So would you like to see a LIPO shoot out in XTREME RC?
(ROAR catagory and non RoaR)
We can argue the results and testing methodes after the shootout gets published.
Instead arguing how to do the test, maybe we could all agree we would like to see some sort or test aka shootout....
So would you like to see a LIPO shoot out in XTREME RC?
(ROAR catagory and non RoaR)